Relationship Critique Thread

@Omnigoat: I like that irony. And fire-forged friendships are always very good. Both characters seem rather interesting, and the relationship seems to be pretty viable.

I tweaked a few things on mine, by the way.

edited 26th Jul '15 1:44:08 PM by Protagonist506

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"

Just giving the thread a bump, and requesting that when the next person posts an example they comment on my post from the previous page.

Thank you.

I think, if you want to develop Cassandra and want her to change, then she would tell Chase. Maybe she's gathered up enough confidence or strength to tell him, maybe after Gracie tells her the crush would never be reciprocated if she doesn't tell him— or perhaps, Cass realizes Chase doesn't pick up signals and whatnot. Or on a more humor-filled moment, she gets the strength from one of her soap operas since the lead finally told that guy she liked him.

I'm not sure if I will post another example to critique, so.

edited 30th Jul '15 5:55:36 AM by electronic-tragedy

Life is hard, that's why no one survives.

@Amber I feel like nobody should really "tell" anyone about Cass's crush, but instead Chase should find out on his own organically. Unless not being able to register it by himself is one of his character traits (Restricted Worldview flaw), he shouldn't be too dense to figure it out.

Then again, I don't know the entire story, so that advice may be completely useless, but hey.

As for what I'd like critique on, I don't really have a specific couple in mind, rather a dynamic that I'd like feedback on.

Every single one, and I mean every single one of my romantic relationships seems to follow the exact same dynamic. The characters themselves are all over the personality spectrum, so I'm not afraid of it being stale, but the dynamic remains the same.

One half of the relationship is what I like to call the Power. Traditionally, they're ridiculously strong in combat to the extent that they can take on entire armies and win, ranging anywhere from level 3 to level 6 on the Super Weight scale.

However, the process of acquiring this godlike strength has invariably left them, err, not quite balanced. The severity of the disorder varies, from being a raging misogynist to hallucinating they are possessed by a demon that causes them to kill without mercy or remorse to even actually being possessed by a demon.

The other half of the dynamic is what I call the Control. They are the ones that, consciously or unconsciously, hold the Power back from being becoming truly evil. They're the ones who bring out the best in them and try to make it stay there. They don't usually "fix" the Power by themselves, but they at least get them to the point where they can be fixed. In this way, this half of the relationship is the part that hold the actual power, because the Power, unable to make the right decisions, trusts and follows the Control to do it for them.

What exactly is wrong about this dynamic (I know there's something)? How could I improve it?

edited 31st Jul '15 8:13:17 PM by gameknight102xx

Done well with an appropriate balance there's nothing innately wrong with that set-up. There are, however, a number of ways in which it could go spectacularly wrong. I'll try to list a few for you.

If the Control character has too much authority, or the Power character is too damaged/handicapped to really make their own decisions, then the relationship is unbalanced. The Control character is essentially running the Power character's life and could, even if that's not your intent, present as a Control Freak, a user, or even flatout emotionally abusive. In a particularly bad example you could end up with a scenario where you essentially have a relationship between an adult and a child, regardless of their actual ages, and that will squick some people out.

If the Power character is too violent, too uncontrollable, and too prone to breaking whatever limits are placed on their behaviour, you have the opposite problem wherein the Control character comes off as the abuse victim, living in fear of their partner and regularly cleaning up the disasters they leave in their wake. The Control character ends up as an apologist for a dangerously unstable individual whom the audience perceives as hazardous to their own health.

Those are the two extremes, but there's also a myriad of ways in-between that this could go wrong. The Control character could end up as emotional crutch who can't handle physical danger on their own. The Power character could present as an attack dog rather than an equal partner. They could both come off as so co-dependent that the relationship is unhealthy.

And then of course, there's the simple fact that if the Power character is male and the Control character is female, then you are writing a raging, raging stereotype and will likely be struck with at least some accusations of sexism, be it conscious or unconscious.

Hope that helps.

Thank you for the advice. I can't tell you how vital it is I perfect this, since this is literally the basis for most of the character development in my stories.

One thing though: I have placed a "meta" rule on these relationships. The Power is not allowed to physically harm the control. Whether on accident or on purpose. The opposite is not true, and one of the Powers actually doesn't mind or care if his Control kicks him around.

Although one thing I am curious about is your last few sentences. Co-dependency is a bad thing? In dangerous situations, the theme is that without the Power, the Control does not have the raw force needed to survive, and without the Control, the Power does not have the ability to better his own life and cannot utilize their strength effectively.

And also, sexism? Could you explain that in more detail?

edited 31st Jul '15 9:00:22 PM by gameknight102xx

Codependency, as a term, implies an inability to function without one another, and that is indeed a bad thing. Loving one another is fine. Being better with one another around is fine. But needing the other in order to function as a human being is not a sign of a healthy person, or a healthy relationship. People need to be able to operate independently of one another. Now obviously you could have a relationship that starts out codependent and then gets better, but codependency shouldn't be the end point of a relationship.

As for sexism the raging, out of control male restrained by the gentle, loving, and innocent female is a very old trope—almost cliche really—and is loaded down with Unfortunate Implications about both genders.

I just wanted to talk about one aspect of this one rather than the whole thing, if that's okay. Caleb's a skyling, basically a wind being forced into humanoid form, who is doomed to eventually become warped in mind and body to become a slave of a Elderich Abomination. (Actually he's going to become that creature himself if he doesn't find a way to stop the transformation, but at the beginning only the conspiracy knows that). Autumn is a human who, wanting to ease tensions between humans and skylings after the war, is doing intern work at internment camp for skylings at risk of becoming wendigo. They met and became friends, bonding over their love of entertaining others; Caleb with his puppet shows, Autumn with her sequential art.

Caleb has feelings for Autumn, but believes he should keep them to himself so she won't suffer any additional grief when he becomes a wendigo, if she reciprocates. When another character, Nicolette, digs this out of him, she thinks he should tell Autumn and let her decide.

Narratively the secrets is going to get out, by Caleb's choice or not. But in-universe do you think it's the right thing for him to tell her?

Something to note is that only skylings can become wendigo. Humans are immune to it. Also, just so some things won't seem out of place, this takes place in a secondary world fantasy with pretty advance technology existing alongside the power of the not-using-the-m'-word eidolons.

edited 17th Aug '15 12:44:16 PM by Novis

You say I am loved, when I don’t feel a thing. You say I am strong, when I think I am weak. You say I am held, when I am falling short.

Telling somebody that you love them is rarely the wrong thing to do. Unless they are in a relationship with somebody else, or are emotionally unable to handle this information, sharing it is unlikely to be a bad thing. Fact is, as his friend she's going to be in the firing line when he transforms anyway, so I'm not sure how the admission of love could actually make things worse.

---

So, some time back I made a series of posts in the Hero Critique Thread about the main cast of a story I aim to write someday. I noted that I intended to have a fair amount of Ship Tease both within and without the Five-Man Band. What I'm not sure of is what the final pairings should be. I thought I'd post links to the characters here, with some brief comments about their various relationships, and see where the thread thinks I should take their development.

Emary Rose is The Protagonist, and The Leader of the Five-Man Band. She's been defending Shona since they were in elementary school, and slowly, over the course of the series, starts trusting Basil as her second-in-command. She's also got an immensely complicated relationship with ex-best friend turned rival Ike Rail.

Ike Rail is Emary's main rival, and the second most important character in the story. He wants to repair his relationship with Emary, but isn't sure how, and once he finds out what happened to Shona in the past, he takes an active role in trying to improve her life. Am unsure as to whether he should also have another potential love interest in his own crew.

Basil Crux is a reformed petty criminal who acts as Emary's Lancer and Number Two. He's the only person other than Emary who understands, from the beginning how bad Shona's life has been, and he takes an especial interest in how well she's holding up (taking a bullet for her is what activates his power). After a significant amount of Character Development, and the building up of trust between them, he's also the one member of Emary's crew to worry about how well she's holding things together and tries to provide her with as much emotional support as possible.

Shona Katze is an abused, broken mess, and The Chick of Emary's crew. She worships the ground Emary walks on to the point of it bordering on a crush, and has since they were children. She's close to Basil, who has an inkling of where her trauma stems from (Emary thinks she knows but is completely wrongheaded), and has an entire character arc about overcoming her fear of Ike.

I have, as of this moment, no clue as to which direction I want to take any of these relationships, which ones will become romantic, or even if any of them should. I would love to hear the opinions of the thread on the subject, and the opinions of more than one person at that—even if you all disagree. Which of these relationships do you think have the potential to become functioning romances? Which should just stay friendships? Etc, etc. Hopefully the write-ups in the Hero Critique Thread provide enough information, but if you need more, I am happy to provide it here.

I had to put my low fantasy project on the backburner after my dad was stabbed to death and I lost the will to write it (it really doesn't help that the main character beats what is technically her dad to death after he kills her mother in front of her), and switched over to a semi-Asimovian science fiction story for which I'd like a little critique on my romance idea.

Anyway, the idea goes like this, the main character, Anna, has had a crush on another young woman, Fleur, for a few months now, but never had the opportunity to speak to her. About a third of the way through the story, Rachel, Anna's best friend, calls her and asks her to pick up a friend whose car caught fire on the freeway, and she agrees.

When she gets there, her robot, Robbie, in tow, she finds Fleur on the side of the road, near her burned out car. After confirming that she was the one Rachel sent (and before this only being vaguely aware that Rachel and Fleur knew each other) and going through the motions I went through after my car caught fire (IE, are you okay, what happened, etc.) and a bit of awkwardness with Fleur and Robbie, due to her being nervous about robots, Anna takes her, at her suggestion (having missed lunch) to a fast food place.

While there, Fleur states that the man she is seen going to lunch with every Thursday is just a good friend and she isn't interested in men "in that way" before asking if Anna wants her help in hooking up with him, which she declines, admitting she's a lesbian herself.

They don't get together at this point, because Anna's nervous about seeming too forward, and Fleur, despite her barely existent dating life, doesn't think the right time to ask someone on a date is right after your car caught fire, especially if you just met them, though they do become friends due to some shared interests Fleur's easygoing personality (BTW, opinions on these two paragraphs in particular would be welcome).

A few weeks later, after they've gotten to know each other better and Fleur starts to warm up to Robbie, she asks Anna on a date, which she accepts after a few seconds of utter speechlessness. From there, I could use some advice, though, simply to avoid pitfalls and find a good, realistic way to continue it.

My troper wall

That's not particularly helpful. None of the characters I listed have "looking for romance" as a goal, which makes looking for one that isn't there a virtual impossibility.

Also, not sure where you got the impression that Ike is more damaged than Basil. Shona is absolutely a trainwreck, but even in her case the story is about her moving past that.

You are supposed to comment on a prior example before posting your own.

edited 18th Aug '15 3:58:56 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

^I missed that

I'll comment on something later... Too busy writing.

edited 18th Aug '15 4:39:02 PM by Acebrock

My troper wall

Once you do I'll provide you with some feedback on your example.

Thanks for your feedback Ambar. Your right that the fact that their already close is a consideration.

You say I am loved, when I don’t feel a thing. You say I am strong, when I think I am weak. You say I am held, when I am falling short.

Ambar, here are my opinions:

I think Emary getting with Ike, like rivals getting together, is overdone and expected. Though to me, it's a dynamic I don't get. It'd be more interesting to see them reconcile their friendship.

My first thought is Basil getting with Shona. Y'know, the protector/protectee dynamic that I also see a lot. I can get it if Shona pines for Basil, but it also might be expected for them to get together. Also there's the cliche that "Love Heals Everything" or that every blemish you have can be fixed with having a relationship, when in reality, it doesn't. Shona should develop herself, regardless of romantic relationships.

It would be interesting, to me at least, if Emary takes interest in Basil. Or maybe if orientations are right, maybe Emary and Shona. It's fine if no one gets together in the end if it doesn't feel right to you. Although there are a lot of dynamics and angles to take them.

Life is hard, that's why no one survives.

My intent with Shona, no matter who she ultimately may or may not wind up with in the end, is for her to get her character development first, then explore the possibilities of a relationship. Not only do I want to avoid the classic "dating solves all problems" trope that you mentioned, but the fact is that early story Shona would be much too damaged for any one person to hope to fix on their own, or for that matter to be a functional partner. It takes a lot of effort on the part of Emary, Basil, and eventually, Ike, but most importantly, from Shona herself, for her to recover from all the damage she's suffered over the years. Then, and only then, would I want her to try and get a Relationship Upgrade with anyone.

edited 19th Aug '15 9:11:10 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

So I'm a little confused about the couple that Novis wants feedback on—Wendigos are historically the result of cannibalism dooming a human spirit to a fate of eternal hunger and murdering, but I haven't gotten anything like that from your example.

Is he scared of telling her his feelings because he's generally scared of how dangerous being a Wendigo is, or is he specifically scared of hurting HER because if he told her his feelings and she becomes his girlfriend, she would logically be close to him most of the time and therefore a prime target for his magical nastiness?

Either way, I second the notion that he should tell her. It's a lot better to get your feelings out than to bottle them up.

@68: First off, condescension’s never cool. Secondly, I’m not sure where you’re coming from here. The focus of the story—at least from what I’ve read on the hero critique thread—is an adventure, not a romance. None of the characters have “find love” as their goal. The closest is Shona having a borderline crush on Emary, but even that seems more like a really dedicated friendship. Ambar’s just asking if romance can or should be done with any of the characters as they currently are. The story of people looking for love with others who they aren’t compatible with is fine, but it’s not the story Ambar is trying to tell so I don’t really see why you’re bringing it up.

@59: Anyway, more to the point at hand, I agree with Electronic-Tragedy in that Emary and Ike probably shouldn’t get together. I’d much rather see them repair their friendship than be together romantically. They seem too incompatible, and while they can probably help each other grow as people, from what I’ve read, I can’t see them forming a functioning relationship as is. Basil and Shona, on the other hand, I could see becoming romantic, particularly if Shona realizes Basil’s issues and wants to help him improve in the same way that Basil wants to help her. Shona and Emary I have a harder time seeing together in a healthy way due to Shona's blind devotion to Emary. That would have to be altered in a big way for me to be on board with it. Regardless, I am glad that you said Shona won’t be getting together with anyone until she’s mostly over her issues.

To be honest, without knowing anything whatsoever about Ambar's story, your posts still seem kind of rude, both in the tone and the content. Telling someone to drop what they're intending and tell your story instead, and telling them that "it's overused" without any more substantive advice than that, are both unhelpful and rather pushy kinds of criticism. I know I'd be annoyed if I asked for advice here and got that kind of response.

Edit: To be more precise, your original post isn't rude, but it's totally understandable that someone would consider it unhelpful feedback, so to keep pushing it after they've said so and insisting that people just aren't listening is.

edited 30th Aug '15 2:46:08 PM by nrjxll

I'm not really inclined to argue about this, because I don't want to speak for Ambar and I don't actually care that much about romance to begin with (which is why I haven't commented previously in this thread). But I will say that if someone had told me that my criticism was unhelpful, I wouldn't "try to be more helpful" by saying the exact same thing over again in a more patronizing tone.

edited 30th Aug '15 4:11:25 PM by nrjxll