I don't have anything substantial to contribute, but I just wanted to take a moment to say that this is a seriously great idea for a critique thread. I feel like relationship writing is something that can benefit more than just about anything else from being given a brief once-over by someone else.
edited 5th Jul '15 9:40:24 PM by nrjxll
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Thanks. Having seen a lot of bad, or at least problematic relationships in the books I've read, I've often wondered who, if anybody at the editorial/publishing company approved them.
Anyway, if nobody else has posted within a day or so I'll put up one of my own relationships to try and get the ball rolling.
Roll that ball! More people will join in when they see how this thread plays out. 
Eglantine is secretly a fairy princess, so secret that even she doesn't know it, because her fairy parents mindwiped the entire family and they all went to live on earth as human people. In 18th century France. She's committed to being a dutiful daughter, being pleasant and no trouble, and having no ambitions because the magic spell that made them all human also only downgraded her family from monarchs to upper crust. They don't have to work. Her mother is a bit of a Reality Warper, enough to pull that off, but not as strong as Eglantine is going to be. Luckily, none of them will ever remember or know that they're fairies, so it isn't ever going to matter. Well, Eglantine begins to go through a second puberty as in does magic without knowing it, and that spells financial ruin for the family and they have to go work a farm. Fallen Princess Eglantine adjusts to this well because she subconsciously made it happen by feeling that she didn't belong in the city's high society.
Her love interest, who I can't figure out a name for so I'll just go with Rose, is a fairy knight in quest of the lost royal family, especially the princess. When I say "knight" I really mean "squire" because her kingdom doesn't exist anymore (it was away from Eglantine's) and her mentor in errant knighthood died trying to rescue Eglantine in their fairyland life. Rose has come to earth to remind Eglantine of her fairyland origins, and because Eglantine is the best chance at defeating the thing that scared them off to earth in the first place.
Now here come the Unfortunate Implications: The reason it was so dangerous to keep Eglantine a fairy was because Eglantine had nascent Reality Warper powers tied to her emotions, aaand the Eldritch Abomination more than symbolically did a number on her.
As of now, Human!Eglantine likes Rose so much because she feels safe and loved in their budding romance, healing some remnant of how her life in fairyland ended.
That's what comes through when I'm imagining their interactions, but if I really think about it, it makes no sense that Girl in the Tower Eglantine would feel safe around Manic Pixie Dream Girl Rose. Excited, maybe. Apprehensive, more likely. Safe, maybe not.
Nor should she, as Rose frames the reminders as pre and post coital storytelling time, but otherwise knows that the fairy stories she tells are real while Eglantine keeps thinking that they're stories. Rose also does all the seducing, because she doesn't know that the point of Courtly Love is not to do the thing. Also because sex is associated with privacy in a way that storytelling isn't, and Rose needs privacy. To, ermm, isolate her new girlfriend from her family.
If Eglantine's parents heard the story and recovered their memories before Eglantine herself, they would definitely try to stop Rose from saving fairyland from the Eldritch Abomination, and they could probably do that with magic (that Rose doesn't have, she had to have other spellcasting fairies make the dimension bridge for her. Rose is half human, so she can pass as human even though she didn't grow up in the human world.)
So, that's not going to balance out until Eglantine crowns herself Queen-Goddess of fairyland, and Rose is revealed as the Badass Normal she always was.
edited 6th Jul '15 10:54:18 AM by Faemonic
Here's the problems I personally find with this relationship:
1) Why is Eglantine a Psycho Lesbian if she doesn't have her memories? More often than not, survivors of rape or abuse AREN'T violent. Fighting back means they get hurt more quickly or more badly than if they're passive. Without retaining her memories to give her a Freudian Excuse in the first place, why would she even be a Psycho Lesbian? More likely, Eglantine would be withdrawn and have a Paralyzing Fear of Sexuality in general due to the subconscious memory of what happened to her.
2) You didn't mention Rose to have violent, emotionally abusive, or otherwise triggering tendencies. Manic Pixie Dream Girl aside, if Rose doesn't push any of her trigger buttons for rape, of course Eglantine would quickly feel safe around her.
3) The plot itself is just confusing to me. It looks like you're trying to combine the Changeling Tale with a Changeling Fantasy, but here's what happens in the Changeling Tale:
- The Fair Folk see a pretty/talented person and decide to take them away to the Otherworld, while giving a fairy as a replacement.
- After a few months or years, the replacement is quickly discovered 1) to have strange powers, 2) to be afraid of Cold Iron (they cannot touch it without pain), 3) to have strange powers or abilities, and 4) to insist on following strange rules that their human community cannot fathom, while also being very unskilled at human social norms.
- Once the person is suspected to be a changeling, many cultures suggest that the person be beaten or killed to reveal its true nature.
- Option 1: The Fair Folk panic and restore the swapped pair to their rightful families. Option 2: The changeling itself reveals their true nature, is unharmed by attempts to kill it, and returns to the Otherworld on their own power. This immediately restores the human counterpart. Option 3: The humans have just beaten or killed their own child/spouse/sibling, who has a mental/physical condition that unfortunately makes them look/act like a fairy.
Meanwhile in a Changeling FANTASY, which is much simpler:
- Person is originally in X society-class or country.
- Person is taken to Y class/country to be safe.
- Over the course of the story, their true nature is revealed.
There are so many things that can go wrong with a traumatized, amnesiac fairy AND goddess wandering around the human world. Either her powers are instinctively controlled, or they've gotten a power-limiter while she lacks her memory to prevent world destruction. Otherwise the fairies are just plain stupid.
Either you need to retool the plot to combine the two better, or I'm just not understanding it from your original post.
edited 6th Jul '15 1:20:19 PM by Sharysa
1.) Eglantine isn't the Psycho Lesbian, but structurally Rose might be. Paralyzing Fear of Sexuality is Eglantine's trope, Rose is the opposite...which is the problem.
2.)
Rose doesn't trigger Eglantine. Bella Swan doesn't get creeped out by Edward Cullen, and the original post had an example of a character going to bed with somebody who harasses her (usually her), so I figured that the reaction of the partner can still be problematic. Rose gets Eglantine's passive curiosity, not her enthusiastic or fully informed consent.
3.) Playing with a Trope, but it is structurally a Changeling Fantasy.
- Eglantine comes from Fairyland.
- Her family took her to the human side of France to be safe.
- Over the course of the story, Eglantine's Fairyland origins are revealed.
Think Pans Labyrinth but with a more desperate faun (so the Secret Test is more, "Fuck it, I already know you can do the thing so just please wake up to the fact that you know it and just do it already"), and the Earthly condition is poverty rather than the Spanish Civil War.
The Changeling Tale is more in Rose's backstory: Rose's father was from the human world, stolen as a baby and never "rescued", so Rose is the child of a changeling whose new address is fairyland (human father) and a fairy born and bred in fairyland (nonhuman father.)
I guess Eglantine's whole family can serve as the fairy-to-human changelings in the Changeling Tale if they swapped with a whole other family, and the human high society started thinking, "That whole family is strange, let's shun them into poverty and maybe have the real La Voisiers back."
But they didn't steal human identities, they made new ones for themselves. And Eglantine's powers aren't as noticeable as fireballs or lightning bolts, she's just a Reality Warper who gradually gets more conscious and conscientious of it.
Either her powers are instinctively controlled, or they've gotten a power-limiter while she lacks her memory to prevent world destruction.
The human identities and memories crafted by Eglantine's mother during the dimension-crossing spell are the Power Nullifier. If she doesn't remember, she doesn't get upset, she doesn't end the world. If she thinks she's human, then she believes it's preposterous that a mere mortal wouldn't be subject to the laws of physics and government. All undermine the Reality Warper powers.
So, the power limiter is failing in a small way, (Eglantine gets mood swings that she can't explain and tries to brush off, the family suffers a string of misfortune that they figure is just part of life...nothing apocalyptic) but Rose is pushing for a major failure of that power limiter in a big way. Rose is trying to shape a less traumatized, memory-recovered, responsible and instinctively skilled Reality Warper to take to the Eldritch Abomination on the home turf and give it a what-for.
edited 6th Jul '15 10:51:55 PM by Faemonic
I've got to second a lot of this. This relationship sounds really uncomfortable. Moreoever I'm just confused as to the story, which isn't helping. Elaborate, please.
I think you should really avoid making anybody, structurally or otherwise, a Psycho Lesbian. That's a very problematic trope with a long and ugly history behind it. Unless you're planning to do something very interesting with it, I'm not sure I see the purpose in using it.
Now, I confess most of the stories I've actually written haven't featured a lot of romance. So the characters posted here are from a story that I've had in my head for a while, but have never actually written. Originally, they were meant as a secondary couple in a high school drama, but I'm not sure they aren't more interesting than my main couple were.
Names: Max Hayes and Melanie "Mel" Gordon
Who Are They?: Melanie's what used to be dubbed high-functioning autistic—while in full possession of her mental faculties, she's severely socially crippled, and is possessed of a set of verbal and physical tics that make it clear to everybody who encounters her that there is something severely off. While she'd like to be socially accepted, her awkwardness, coupled with held-over nervousness from a traumatic elementary school experience keeps her on the fringes of social groups. She wears her hair long and in her eyes, keeps her gaze on the ground, and tends to give the impression of being seconds away from bolting.
Max is the Vice-President of the school drama club, and a well-known, if not particularly liked figure in the halls, famous for portraying villains and comic relief characters—but never romantic leads—in school productions. Loud, opinionated, and outspoken, Max has an opinion on everything and everybody, and shares those opinions regardless of whether they are asked for or not. Near the top of most of his classes, he can be something of an intellectual bully, tearing down any idea he can find so much as a singe flaw in. Unbeknownst to most who don't know what to look for, Max is also on the autism spectrum, and is overcompensating for Asperger's Syndrome and regularly getting his ass kicked in his elementary school days.
How did they meet?: As the two most seriously disabled, yet scholastically functional students in a small primary school, Max and Mel have been getting thrown together since the first grade, when Max transferred into the school. They've been joined at the hip ever since.
What is the status of their relationship when the story begins?: Max and Melanie have been best friends—and one another's only real friends—since grade one. Max typically acts as Mel's interpreter and protector, helping her navigate social currents, making sure nobody tries to mess with her. Anybody who does attempt to hassle or take advantage of Melanie will usually find Max homing on them with a barrage of threats that he could never back up, but makes sound utterly convincing. Melanie, for her part, acts as Max's conscience and often serves as a check on his anger, reining him in when he's moving from "angry and bitter" to "total jackass". Thanks to a bevy of martial arts classes (which her parents enrolled her in hoping it would help with her coordination issues) she's also a lot more capable of handling herself in a fight than Max is. Push things too far, or try to call Max's bluff and it may well be Melanie who puts you in the hospital (though most of her classmates will never ever be aware that she can do this). As high school goes on and they end up in separate classes this dynamic is beginning to fray, but when the story opens, this is still a largely accurate description.
Problems?: High school isn't elementary school or middle school. While the cliques can be bad, there's a lot more kids around, and your odds of finding a group that you have something in common with are greater. Max, however, hasn't figured this out yet. He's still operating under the assumption that the student body collectively see Melanie as a freak, and that anybody who tries to get close to her is only doing so in order to try and humiliate her in some way (that this did happen when they were younger only worsens his paranoia). When Stephanie (the story's original protagonist and one of the nicer popular girls) tries to befriend Mel, Max starts running interference on her despite there being nothing that needs to be interfered with; in a way, he's the one keeping Mel isolated though he doesn't know it. His growing crush on her—and his dawning recognition of said crush for what it is—isn't helping, and he's starting to see himself as the very thing he hates, ie somebody who tries to take advantage of Mel. For now he's sublimating that feeling into a greater and greater sense of hostility at the rest of the world.
Melanie, on the other hand, has been in love with Max since they were about ten, but has no idea of how to tell him, or even express her interest at all. Oblivious to his emotional turmoil, she's frustrated that he doesn't see her as a girl, and is trying harder and harder to catch his eye, wearing more revealing clothing, bringing up relationships/sex at truly inopportune times in conversation, and otherwise hammering him over the head with her gender. She's just making it worse of course, but doesn't realize this at all.
What do they want?: Max wants Melanie to be safe and happy. He also wants to deal with his attraction to her—though how he wants to deal with that (getting rid of it) and how he needs to deal with it (accepting it) are not the same at all. Melanie wants Max to transition from trying to protect her to dating her; she also wants to end her loner status and reach out to some of the other girls in the student body.
Resolution?: Max needs to calm down, get his anger and paranoia under control, and accept that his crush on Mel doesn't make him a bad person. Melanie needs to break out of the isolation Max has unintentionally trapped her in, while at the same time maintaining his friendship. She also needs to tell him how she feels about him, at a point when he can accept and deal with that. What needs to happen in the plot for them to get there, I don't know; I'll take any and all suggestions.
Other things to consider?: Max and Mel (and their supporting cast) are characters in search of a plot. I've always known how I want the character arcs to move, but have few concrete notions about the story or characters they are in. Accordingly, when you critique the relationship, feel free to fire off some ideas for the story or type of story they could fit into.
edited 6th Jul '15 10:42:16 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Would it ease the tension a bit if Stephanie started out as Max's girlfriend or tried to be, and it was Melanie who forged a friendship with Stephanie out of the initial approach of rivalry?
Then there's how the characters on the Autism spectrum understand and approach sexism. I would think that the Childhood Friend Romance works heteronormatively because, at an age where boys are made of snips and snails and girls have cooties, the boy and girl don't care to follow that sort of societal conditioning. Max might not be wired for it (which is why Stephanie would be a threat rather than a visiting ambassador from the realm of femininity to broker a treaty with Mel), but why then would Melanie think that Max would consider her as a partner if he were made to realize that she was a woman?
I think you should really avoid making anybody, structurally or otherwise, a Psycho Lesbian. That's a very problematic trope with a long and ugly history behind it. Unless you're planning to do something very interesting with it, I'm not sure I see the purpose in using it.
It's more like, in making the story, I noticed that it could be there and was asking how to subvert it. So, how can I subvert or remove Rose as Predatory Gay (especially because Rose has ulterior world-saving motives,) and Eglantine as lesbian rape survivor?
I'm guessing that Rose's move of isolating Eglanting from her family could be forgivable when Eglantine's family is essentially silencing their daughter's trauma with magic to fit into the Stepford Smiler standard of power nullification. But otherwise...
edited 7th Jul '15 12:32:38 AM by Faemonic
In my original draft of this story concept, way back when, Stephanie did initially try to approach Max out of a vague sort of interest, only to get shut down by him when he assumed that this had to be some sort of sick joke. That suspicion and hostility on his part then carries over when she tries to make friends with Mel.
Not sure exactly what you're driving at in the second part of your post. Don't know if that's because you've missed a word somewhere, or if because it's currently 2:10 AM where I am. Something about gender norms and people on the spectrum not subscribing to them (as somebody on the spectrum I did not miss the cooties phase; it just kicked in later)? Not quite sure what that has to do with what I was talking about. Mel thinks that Max isn't registering her as a potential romantic/sexual partner. She's trying to get him to.
edited 6th Jul '15 11:16:41 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Oh. I did.
If Max thought Stephanie was bullying him instead of flirting, that makes another kind of sense.
When social anxiety stops Mel from just spitting it out in a way she knows he can't miss, what does she resort to and why? That's the jump from reasoning to action that I didn't catch, although that happens often.
It could be like In The Heights where there's just a lot of thematic subplots. (In the work's page linked, plot points were: a lottery, the daughter of a business owner coming home from college because she dropped out, a blackout, and the death of an elderly person beloved by the neighborhood. A summer heat wave was also tied in to the themes and plot. The weather. The weather.)
Maybe a TV show starts filming on their campus, Stephanie gets a role, and complains about the Alpha Bitch in high school being so unrealistic but she wants to be a professional actress? As a result of this, Max and Melanie could wake up to how the reality they have struggled to conform to (non-aspie/autistic, grade school and middle school playground warfare) isn't the same as the reality that they create by living their lives. Melanie's move to make a move on Max could come about from the realization that she's not wrong for existing, for having her own perspective, for inhabiting her experience, for having feelings and needs and stuff. Max's positive response could come about from the realization that it's not taking advantage if the other person volunteers...which he could have learned from somebody other than Stephanie's storyline, say, volunteering at a soup kitchen or something in search of a runaway rebellious sibling/cousin. Or something else.
edited 6th Jul '15 11:57:38 PM by Faemonic
As stated in the initial post, Mel starts dressing more provocatively and dropping what she believes are subtle conversational hints about her interest in romance/sex. Of course since Melanie is who she is it's about as subtle as a brick to the face, but she doesn't realise that. I'll note that some of this is lifted, albeit in a much exaggerated manner, from my then-best friend, now girlfriend's attempts at getting my attention in Grade 12.
There's one or two interesting ideas in the second half of your post that I may appropriate. I'll add that in my original draft of the story, Stephanie and Terry (her Love Interest) spent a lot of time trying to mediate between cliques and keep a lid on the social warfare and potential violence of the school. Max and Mel—Max in particular—were getting caught up in much of that, which is why they were the original Beta Couple.
edited 7th Jul '15 6:58:37 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Your phrase of "isolating Eglantine from her family" sounds like a REALLY big red-flag for an implied abuser/psycho-lesbian. That is one of the most common phrases abuse victims use to describe how their abusers subtly (or not subtly) cut them off from every other influence in their lives, either to make them dependent on their abuser or to just ensure they're too paralyzed with fear to get help—because they believe they have no help.
Unless you meant the much more reasonable "expanding her viewpoint of the world" or "getting Eglantine out from her parents' fretting/smothering/etc," I'd really advise you to just leave out the Psycho Lesbian entirely and make Rose a normal, rational person who falls for the strange but compelling fallen princess.
Otherwise you're going to piss off a LOT of LGBT people who have dealt with those accusations in their actual lives, and see it done to death in the media. It doesn't matter that she does it to save the world—this will hit people hard in a way that has nothing to do with your actual story.
Combining the two EXTREMELY DIFFERENT stories of Changeling Tale and Changeling Fantasy is already confusing enough, and then you've got a potential abuser in the mix.
edited 19th Nov '15 11:12:58 PM by Sharysa
I'll second most of what you said here. Any thoughts on the relationship I posted, by the way? Could always use more feedback, especially if I ever decide to actually write that story.
@Ambar: It sounds like you've put a lot of thought into the dynamics of Max and Mel's relationship, and as far as I know, the idea of romance between two characters with different forms of autism is not one that's been explored in the mainstream, so you could probably find an audience for your work. But, yeah, it sounds like you need to figure out the overarching plot and decide whether Max and Mel are going to be the alpha couple or the beta couple.
... Can I post my couple?
By now, it should be clear to all except the most dense of us that sheep are secretly conspiring to kill us all and steal our pants.
Otherwise you're going to piss off a LOT of LGBT people who have dealt with those accusations in their actual lives, and see it done to death in the media.
That last bit is why I offered it here for workshopping, or talk shopping.
Unless it's really all in the execution and not the premise that makes any difference between "isolating someone from their family support system" and "freeing someone from their family suffocation system", or Psycho Lesbian and Normal Rational Lesbian who the wrong sort of reader would only look for excuses to call psycho because the character is lesbian.
Also @Sharysa
Eep. I tried to keep this concise and pertaining only to the relationship, but it wasn't concise. Names not decided on yet, dialogue not exact because it often summarizes several scenes. Here we go...
Once upon a time in another dimension. An Atlantis-like part of fairyland goes kaput or kablooey. This is massively fatal. The only way to have possibly survived that disaster is either to have magic more powerful than the average fairy, or not be in that part of fairyland when it went all pear-shaped.
Sir Bob the knight errant and his squire Rose were not in that part of fairyland when it went all pear-shaped. They were busy helping some Spriggans fend off a dragon in the enchanted forest, especially with the help of the Spriggan cleric Simon, and the random passer-by Jack. Jack was the one who recognized Sir Bob as an Atlantean knight and broke the news to him about Atlantis. That's a bummer.
The dragon eats Sir Bob, double bummer.
Rose, Jack, and Simon form an adventuring party with Rose as the swordslinging tank, Jack as the mage because Jack has magic more powerful than the average fairy, and Simon as the healer.
Simon mentions that the Spriggans are basically nomads of the forest, who have never seen a dragon until now. Maybe it's just because the Spriggans are exploring parts of the forested country that they never had before, which can be cool, for example, Simon's tribe found ruins of a civilization older than the Spriggans. Well, Simon thinks that's cool.
The three explore the ruins. Jack deduces that people disturbing the ruins is what awoke the dragon. The dragon is guarding the surviving remnants of the reforested civilization. With this knowledge, Jack tames the dragon, gains access to the extra special ruins, and the slumbering civilization therein awakens.
Jack marries Princess Eglantine of the Lost-and-Found Civilization and they live happily ever after.
Oh no they don't. Disregard that last line. This is what happens instead:
The royal family explains why an entire civilization was sleeping for long enough for the forest to reclaim it. The royal family of the Lost-and-Found Civilization are Reality Warpers, with Eglantine's aunt having a claim to the throne that Eglantine's mother invalidated (because Eglantine's mother had Eglantine.) The Great Slumber was Eglantine's mother's way of defending everyone from the Reality Warper turned Eldritch Abomination. Eglantine's aunt had basically gone, "If I can't have this kingdom, then there is no kingdom. Everybody dies!" Eglantine's mother had basically countered with, "Everybody sleep until this tantrum is over." And it is over. The trees proved it by making that part habitable, the Spriggans proved it by inhabiting the trees, and the dragon proved it by getting tamed. None of that could have happened nearby the activity of an Eldritch Abomination. Everybody looks forward to a happy ever after.
So, how does the royal family thank the three adventurers?
"Well," Jack says, "I'd love to study extinct Reality Warper fairy magic because I'm a fairy mage myself. But I also happen to be the Prince Regent of Atlantis. Jack was an alias. Because I am blue blood, I'll marry Eglantine, start my empire all over from here, and everything will be fine."
Rose is all, "What? Jack, I mean...Highness, our kingdom is gone. You must have only survived because you had more powerful magic than the average fairy. Did you see what happened?”
And Jack answers, "Yeah, I broke it. With my magic."
The royal family of the Lost-and-Found Civilization get all shifty-eyed and murmur, "That's not a good track record..."
Jack’s reaction is somewhere along the lines of: "How dare you all! Eglantine is mine! If I can't have this kingdom, then there is no this kingdom!" And bad things happen. While it's taken as a given by the characters that Eglantine's aunt changed from Reality Warper to Eldritch Abomination which necessitated The Great Slumber, it's more like a force than a person by then. Whatever it was, Jack becomes it, too. He calls it up, gets possessed, turns into something bigger and badder than Jack and the aunt and maybe several megalomaniacs and abusers before them combined.
Needless to say, that's not a good thing for the Spriggans, nor for the citizens of Lost-and-Found, nor for the royal family of the Lost-and-Found, and least of all for Eglantine.
Rose is not okay with any of this either, but she can't do much more than say so because she's half human and never had any magic.
Eglantine's mother goes, "I might have been able to fight this with all of you if that Complete Monster hadn't also gotten Eglantine blasting magic about everywhere that she doesn't know how to use because she's upset, and my daughter is probably going to grow more powerful than I am at this age, so...literally...forget you all. I'm taking my family and going to the human world. I'll bind all of our powers in human identities and memories (because that's the closest thing I can do to getting rid of it.) We'll live there without problems. We'll die there. We'll never be a problem here again."
The Spriggans, the citizens of the Lost-and-Found, and Rose are all left alone to deal with the Eldritch Abomination. At least they do not also have to deal with Eglantine, Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds.
...
Nine years later! In human time. Fairyland might have been going at it for hours.
...
Rose turns to Simon and says, "This war sucks. We keep losing against this thing!"
Simon says, "That we're in any condition or position to notice that we're losing against this thing means that we're winning. At least, losing more slowly than anybody would expect in a battle against an Eldritch Abomination."
Rose says, "Oh my stars we’re all going to die. You know, if the Princess of the Lost-and-Found Civilization has more powerful magic than her mother the Dowager Queen Reality Warper, then she could probably handle that thing better than all of us combined."
Simon argues, "The Princess of the Lost-and-Found Civilization was in no condition to use her magic powers at all without destroying the world! She was that upset!"
Rose argues, "But it's been some time in the human world. Maybe she's recovered by now and can do all the defeating of a force of evil that we've been failing at.”
Simon says, “You can’t recover from something that never happened, which was what Queen Reality Warper made real in the human world.”
Rose says, “Do you have a better idea?"
Simon says, "Jack's probably still in there, maybe we can use the The Power of Friendship to dissolve it. We had adventuring parties together and everything."
Rose says, "Are you serious? I hate that guy! It's mostly Jack's fault that this force of nature is so evil! Are you going to open a doorway between fairyland and the human world, or not? If Eglantine ends a world, besides, it won't be ours, it'll be the human world. With me in it, and I still say it’s worth a shot.”
Simon says okay, finds a way to do dimension-hopping magic outside of his expertise, and sends Rose out unassisted because nobody—not the Spriggans, not the citizens of the Lost-and-Found, not any of the seasonal courts, not the Sky folk, not the Earth folk, not the Ocean folk, and certainly not the changelings still in the Fairyland side—would be on board with Rose's plan. Even though they're all losing the same war.
Rose makes her way around the human world, tracks down the memory-wiped royal family, finds Eglantine acting human and goes, “Hey, she's cute too."
From Eglantine's point of view: Her family made their fortune in logistics. This might be looked down upon in a high society where people simply own land and rent it to farmers, not do any trade or work, but Eglantine herself was pleasant enough company not to get into too much trouble. They're all content with going to dinner parties, and the theater, Eglantine has gowns, horses, fancy food, class-equivalent childhood friends... Eglantine grew up like that, and nothing's really changing. It just all feels wrong.
As soon as Eglantine starts to feel that something's wrong, things start to go wrong. Ships sink instead of come in, leaving her family destitute. They try to move to the country where there's a bit of land that they invested in, but the ownership has transferred to somebody else who can prove ownership better in court than they can. (Probably because it's real documentation and not the product of a contagious memory spell that Eglantine is wearing down.) Eglantine's mother falls ill. (Probably as an effect of a subconscious Reality Warper battle, but to the family it’s just another way for life to kick them in the teeth. It’s just life.)
Living out in the country, bandits steal their livestock. Rose comes along, offers to keep the bandits at bay. Rose is interesting. Rose wears trousers and does swordfighting. Rose has interesting stories about fighting dragons and exploring lost civilizations. Eglantine isn't worried that Rose seems to think those fantastical stories are real, or when Rose confesses to having sought out somebody like Eglantine for a very long time. In exchange for keeping the bandits at bay, (with, unfortunately, threat of violence if not actual violence against the bandits) Rose sleeps in the barn where Eglantine brings her meals. (Barn, or the empty kennels, or the stables, but in any case the cottage that the landlord let them have is already too small.)
That's when the relationship starts, but as I said, the shape that it's been taking, their dynamics of fearfully passive Eglantine and go-get-her Rose, and what I'd consider the most brutal turn in the story in Eglantine’s history...all have potentially Unfortunate Implications that I became aware of and would prefer to subvert or remove.
The question is, is it all in the execution or is there a premise, emotional beat, motivation, or event that I could rework into all of the above to make the relationship something else.
Sharysa's point about shifting somebody from isolation to isolation "for the greater good" versus freedom was a good one, thank you, I'll use that.
I'm also thinking of having Rose and Eglantine have some sort of relationship before Jack reveals himself a Complete Monster, so that interdimensional travel becomes more of a deathless sort of Reincarnation Romance.
edited 8th Jul '15 1:50:38 AM by Faemonic
@Strix Obscuro
Absolutely. Post away. You've already fullfilled your obligation to comment on somebody else's post (namely mine) so feel free to put up your couple.
Hmmm...not sure where exactly to jump in on this thread, so I'll just critique the closest established relationship.
@ Ambar Son Of Deshar: First of all, I like Max and Mel's relationship; it's pretty cute with plenty of endearing and heartwarming moments. I'm also a big fan of childhood friendships between opposite sexes that grow into more complicated romances, so that also scores another point for me. The two of them are well-fleshed out characters. If Stephanie is the protagonist/main character, Max seems to be an (and I use the term 'very loosely in this context) Anti-Villain who means well but is too stuck in his old ways to really move forward and deal with the growing complexities of their relationship. All in all, it's well written. Sorry I can't think of anything else to say; it just seems very complete and good and I can't think of anything to really add that would better it
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RE Eglantine and Rose: Oh thank the gods, that is SO MUCH CLEARER. Sorry that your attempts to keep things short blew up in your face. :P
Living out in the country, bandits steal their livestock. Rose comes along, offers to keep the bandits at bay. Rose is interesting. Rose wears trousers and does swordfighting. Rose has interesting stories about fighting dragons and exploring lost civilizations. Eglantine isn't worried that Rose seems to think those fantastical stories are real, or when Rose confesses to having sought out somebody like Eglantine for a very long time. In exchange for keeping the bandits at bay, (with, unfortunately, threat of violence if not actual violence against the bandits) Rose sleeps in the barn where Eglantine brings her meals.
That's not red-flag or abusive at all—I don't know why you thought there had to be some other profound reason for their relationship to start, because this is a perfectly good base already.
Eglantine doesn't find Rose's belief in her stories odd? To the surrounding memory-spelled people, Eglantine's just an odd girl, so she'd naturally love stories about things that don't exist. (And maybe she's missing the excitement of high-society.) In reality, Rose is wearing down the spell on the lost princess.
And did you already remove the Psycho Lesbian parts or are they coming up later?
edited 9th Jul '15 10:38:30 PM by Sharysa
@Swordofknowledge
Calling Max an antivillain, at least from Stephanie's perspective, is pretty accurate. He's actively interfering with her efforts to help Mel, and his escalating verbal and social war with a couple of the guys he and Melanie were in elementary school with is only making her self-appointed role as school peacemaker harder.
@Faemonic
That's a little clearer now. Still a story and relationship you want to step carefully with.
So, for something else. This is another set of characters from a story I haven't written yet (as I mentioned in my first post, I have written actual stories, but they either didn't involve much romance, or were so bad in general there is no fixing it). I was going to post a pairing from a sci-fi story, I've had in my head for a bit, but decided to run with these two instead. They're the intended stars of a romantic dramedy about the debate over whether to tear down an old school.
Names: Richard King and Kylie Reed
Who are they?: Richard is the Childhood Memory Demolition Team. He was also once your classic, tortured high school outsider whose only friends were his fellow outcasts. Fifteen years and a lot of therapy later, and he's the head of a demolition company with contracts all over the province. Hating his hometown and nearly everybody living there, Richard has come home for one purpose and one purpose only—to knock down his former high school, other people's feelings be damned.
Kylie is the female equivalent of the high school jock reliving his glory days. Once captain of the cheerleading squad and runner-up for prom queen, she's now divorced, raising her daughter by herself, and working as the manager at a local restaurant. Grossly underemployed, Kylie, on some level, wants to leave town, but is held back by fear, and the fact that all her friends and family still live there. The one bright spot in her life (besides her daughter) is her involvement with the local PTA, and the way it allows her to continue to relive her high school days.
How did they meet?: Richard and Kiley were neighbours, and fellow students from primary school until graduation. They were also friends, at least until Richard's problematic home life and Kiley's skyrocketing popularity caused them to move in very different directions. Even then, they still saw one another outside of school, despite the fact Kiley was one of the queen bees, and Richard was about a second away from shooting himself.
What is the status of their relationship when the story begins?: Richard and Kiley haven't seen each other in fifteen years. After graduation, Richard moved as far from home as he possibly could while staying in the same province, while Kiley stayed home, got married, got divorced, and became ever more enmeshed in the local culture. When Richard returns to town, he ends up having lunch at the restaurant Kiley works at. She's thrilled to see him—right up until she learns what he's in town for.
Problems?: Kiley wants to see the old school preserved as a local museum or heritage site. Richard wants to put a wrecking ball through the front door and dynamite the foundations—and in fact has a contract to do just that. When Kiley organises a bunch of local protestors to save the building, Richard starts throwing his money around, hiring counterprotestors, starting a campaign to air the worst parts of the school's past, and trying to buy votes on the town council. Neither one is willing to give in, and situation begins to spiral out of control.
On the personal level, Richard and Kiley's experiences of the past are so different that they can barely, if at all, see one another's viewpoints. Kiley does not understand just how abusive many of the people in her own peer group were of Richard, or how close he came to breaking, while Richard has no conception of why Kiley's memories of the school (perhaps the only really positive ones in her life) matter so much to her.
What do they want?: Closure. Richard wants to destroy the past, Kiley wants to memorialize it, but both are seeking a way to cope with their lives. They also want to reconnect as friends—and maybe even something more—but that past is getting in the way.
Resolution?: Richard and Kiley need to move on, and come to terms with their histories. In the end, it shouldn't matter whether the building stays up or comes down—Richard needs to be able to deal with the possibility of the former, Kiley to accept the latter. Kiley also needs to rediscover her ambitions and leave her deadend job—something that going up against Richard ends up helping her with—while Richard needs to look beyond his emotional wounds, and start dealing with people as peers again instead of hiding behind money and power—which Kiley's refusal to buckle under pressure forces him to do.
Other things to consider?: What's the best ending to this story? One where the school stays or goes? Does it matter? Should Richard and Kiley part as friends, or should they start a romantic relationship?
edited 10th Jul '15 6:25:30 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I like the characters and the set up, though a few things seem a bit iffy to me. Mainly the whole “ready to walk into school with a gun” thing. That just instantly kills any sympathy for the character, especially given some of the more recent events. Perhaps make it more about him being two steps away from hurting himself, rather than hurting other people. As justified as it may be from his perspective, some wounds are just too raw to prod at right now, and it seems like it has the potential to be incredibly triggering for some people. Secondly, why is Richard the one counter campaigning so hard? Sure, I get that he wants to, but who was responsible for his demolition contract in the first place? What’s their stake in this? It seems a rather large issue to gloss over. There must be a reason the highschool is condemned after all, and I think that needs a little more exploration.
As far as their relationship goes, I dunno. I think it could easily go either way. Personally, I think a romance is unnecessary, they’ve grown into very different people with different values, and Kiley seems like she needs to relearn how to be an individual before she can hold up a healthy romantic relationship. I think a little more focus on Kileys child, and her relationship with her child, would also be of benefit. It seems that her steadfast commitment to living in the past may be hurting her relationship with her child in the present, which could add another layer to things. As for the school, I think that should come back to the reasons it was condemned in the first place, there has to be a reason after all.
"Mainly the whole “ready to walk into school with a gun” thing. That just instantly kills any sympathy for the character, especially given some of the more recent events. Perhaps make it more about him being two steps away from hurting himself, rather than hurting other people."
Point well taken. Have edited the write-up accordingly. Statement was meant to be hyperbolic, but as you note, some things shouldn't be said regardless.
"Sure, I get that he wants to, but who was responsible for his demolition contract in the first place?"
My original concept was that the town has approached several different people about buying the property, but none are willing to pay the demolition cost. Richard's contract is accordingly with the town, who want the building torn down in hopes of selling the land off; this is why Kiley is actually dangerous from Richard's perspective—if she can raise enough money to buy the property from the town, then they'll likely sell it to her.
"There must be a reason the highschool is condemned after all, and I think that needs a little more exploration."
The building is old, and the town has recently amalgamated with several others. The province has accordingly shut down the schools in several of the smaller former towns (this one included) and handed off the land to the new township.
". I think a little more focus on Kileys child, and her relationship with her child, would also be of benefit."
I do intend to have more focus on this in the story. I just haven't included much here, because I don't know how much her daughter will interact with Richard (likely depends on where their relationship is going).
Hope that fills in some blanks.
PAINKILLER
It seems like a solid plotline, but I don't really see a romantic realtionship here (if that's what you're going for). I see a protagonist and antagonist since they are against each other's goal, and unless in order to fix their problems they have to form a relationship, there isn't one.
Since they are against each other, I don't see a healthy relationship following quite yet. Maybe you should consider how they are to put aside their differences in order to make a relationship?
Otherwise, you've addressed other concerns.
edited 10th Jul '15 7:13:51 AM by electronic-tragedy
Life is hard, that's why no one survives.
I do have to agree with the above statement that the starting situation sounds less like a romantic setup than it does a faceoff between a self-absorbed antagonist and a heroine. As someone who suffered greatly in high school myself I sympathize with his Freudian Excuse, but still Richard just sounds like a jerk.
As for the romance itself, the only critique I might add is that the two of them are from such vastly different spheres that it may be hard to believably "mesh" their perspectives enough for a relationship to form that isn't blatantly hostile. I can't imagine someone as mired in hatred of their past as Richard would be too friendly towards someone who essentially represents everything he despised about high school.
All that said, I'd recommend them first progressing into a solid friendship, perhaps bonding over some neutral yet shared memory of the old school, before progressing into romance. I hope that helped.
edited 10th Jul '15 3:56:54 PM by Swordofknowledge
Fear is a tyrant and a despot, more terrible than the rack, more potent than the snake. — Edgar Walllace
@Ambar Sonof Deshar Richard and Kylie sound like interesting characters, and I could see any one of them being the sole protagonist of their own novel. However, I don't see any reason for them to develop a romantic relationship. Their goals are just too different and the situation they're in is too complicated.
One way to solve this predicament would be to give them a past together. They knew each other while they were in high school, so maybe they actually were high school sweethearts. The thing is, they kept their relationship secret.
The reason for doing that could also have consequences in the present. For example, Kylie kept her thing with Dick a secret because she was popular and he wasn't, and even popular kids are victims of peer pressure. Or it could be that he was just too weird (according to her) so, though she liked him, she was a little bit ashamed of him.
On the other hand, Dick could have been unsure about his relationship with Kylie. Maybe he didn't know if he liked her for who she was or if it was just the illusion of dating someone popular. Maybe he wasn't sure if she liked him back (keeping things secret didn't help matters). Or maybe he was scared that his outcast friends would turn their backs on him if they knew about it, because they'd see him as a traitor.
Of course, having a past is not the only way for people to fall in love (as proven by the rest of the world outside Nicholas Sparks novels).
Kylie and Richard are obviously on opposite sides of the argument, however, despite the fact that the situation does get messy overtime, they still keep a little of cordiality between each other. Maybe it's only for old times sake, for it's something.
So, when they're not wishing to see the other person dead, they meet for coffee to try to find a compromise (or force the other to submit... whatever). Overtime they start to develop a sense of respect for each other and, ultimately, care. So, even if they're unable to see the other's point of view, they respect their passion and do not want to see them humiliated or threatened by other people. This is not uncommon in real life.
I'd argue that the first scenario is easier than the latter. If they were sweethearts before, it is easier to write a continuation to that untold story and have them grow from whatever kept them apart the first time around. The second option is a little bit more complicated because the relationship doesn't start from zero; because of the conflict in the story, the relationship is actually starting in the negatives.
Whatever the case, the relationship depends heavily (or not) on the final outcome of the story. If they're going to end up in a romantic relationship, both of them will have to get what they want. Or neither. But if only someone does, it could look like that person gave up part of who he/she was just for romance. This could be done right, but it could also look like you're taking agency from one of the characters.
So, the final outcome could be: 1) the school is demolished and in its place they create a museum to celebrate, not just the story of the school itself, but for the whole town; 2) the school is not demolished, but they turn it into a foundation to combat bullying or something; 3) the fate of the school is left unresolved (or ambiguous), but Dick and Kylie decide to leave the past behind and move somewhere else, where they can start over without bad memories weighing them down.
I'm sure there are other ways and maybe that's not where you want the story to go, but it could give you a few ideas on how to work the romance.
Nothing can ruin an otherwise great story like a badly written relationship. We've all been there as readers I expect—the action's good, the plot is intriguing, things are moving along well and then, wait a second, why is the heroine sleeping with the guy who spent the first half of the script sexually harassing her?
Truth is, something that seems romantic to the author doesn't always seem romantic to the audience. So, in this thread, we try to help you avoid that pitfall. You post the details of the relationship—who's involved, how they met, what they were like before they encountered one another, what attracts them to one another, how they interact with each other, how the relationship effects them, etc. Then the rest of us chime in and tell you what we think works, and what might need improvement. As is the protocol in the Hero, Villain, and Nation critique threads, if you're going to post, have the courtesy to comment on a previous post first.
PS-I came up with this thread with the intent of critiquing romantic relationships, but if somebody needs help with a different kind of relationship, be it parent/child, sibling, friendly, or even adversarial, I don't see any particular reason why it couldn't be posted here.