Welcome to the Content Violations Discussion forum, where we discuss whether a work violates The Content Policy.
Remember that the forum rules apply here
, plus the following:
- You don't PM moderators about stuff pertaining to the policies, except for thread reasons;
- We tolerate links to scanlation sites unlike in the rest of the site due to its purpose, although it's preferred to remove them when they have done their jobs;
- The forum is not a soapbox for your own views on the policy or on morality. Please leave them at the door.
Violations of these rules can result in a ban from the subforum, or from the entire forum.
Otherwise:
Also, keep in mind that there are works that we don't want flagged without a really good reason as they are not likely in violation of policy:
- Is a film rated below "R" for U.S. distribution.
- Is a show that can be aired on prime time television.
- Is a video game that is rated below "M" by the ESRB.
- Is a written work that is sold in major bookstores without an "adult" or "mature" label.
- Is an anime/manga/etc. that is approved for U.S. import as a non-adult work.
- Is read/shown/taught in high school or below.
- Is in another format and meets equivalent criteria.
What we're looking for:
- Pure porn, or porn with an Excuse Plot only,
- Anything that has explicit underage sex,
- Implied sex of preteens or younger, and
- Fanservice intended to cater to pedophiles (lolicon and shotacon fanservice can count).
A couple of guidelines so the procedure can move smoothly:
- Do not list whole indexes or works just because they are on a certain index or have lolicon, H-Game or shotacon on their trope list.
- Do not list works you know nothing about without at least reading the trope page.
- Do not list works that you know are G-rated but you find creepy.
- If it's paedophile-pandering approximately how old are the characters involved? What happens? Is it graphic? Is it merely implied?
- List what objectionable content there is, and how much of the work consists of that.
- If it's entirely sex, say so. People have different ideas of what porn is. We all have the same idea of what a work being entirely sex scenes is.
- If you're not sure about a work, say so, or ask someone who does know that work. But don't make blanket accusations. Post here: "I don't know about this work, but the page says X".
- Google and Wikipedia are your friendsnote . Do a little digging on works you aren't sure about.
Also, in the case of H Games, there is this questioning to fill up:
- When are the sex scenes located?
- Are they spread out over the game?
- How much gameplay is there between sex scenes?
- Are they only at the endings?
- How hard do you have to work to get an ending?
- Are they in every ending? Every good ending?
- Are the sex scenes optional via a choice in the menu?
- Would the story make sense without them with minimal or no rewriting?
- Are the scenes made up of stills, or are they animated?
- How explicit are the sex scenes?
- This isn't a headcount. Your opinion is only considered if it explains in at least some detail how you came to the conclusion that the work is/isn't porn/paedopandering.
- When a moderator determines that the discussion has yielded a consensus, they can enact its conclusion/ask a moderator to enact the conclusion.
- The discussion is only about whether the work qualifies as porn or as paedopandering. We don't assess anything else in this process.
.
Q: Why is this happening?
A: Concerning the porn, it tends to attract creepy edits that have brought us into issues with the adservers while not significantly contributing to our core purpose - tropology. Concerning paedophilia-pandering, such works are just plain creepy to have pages about.
Q: What can I do to help clean the site?
A: You can flag content as unsuitable using the flag tool, which is located in the Tools menu to the right of each article, keeping the criteria in mind. Also, you can help enforce No Lewdness, No Prudishness across the wiki, possibly though cleaning pages listed in this Long Term Projects thread.
Q: This work is not actually/primarily pornographic. Why was it cut?
A: This could be for a number of different reasons. If the work was deemed to be paedopandering, for example, it will be cut whether or not it's actually sexually explicit. Being pro-paedophilia or pandering to paedophiles is bad enough, even if the work is nominally anti-paedophilia. Of course, it's possible that there was a mistake and then you should appeal it - please check the reasons first, however.
Q: This work is being/has been cut, but it is not a violation of the Content Policy. How do I make an appeal?
A: Flag the work page using the button in the sidebar and state your reasons for restoration.
Q: This work is pretty much pure porn, but it's really good porn. Can an exception be made?
A: Nope, sorry. If it's mainly porn, it goes.
Q: Why would you cut this? In [culture x], it is totally acceptable.
A: The vast majority of our readers come from the Americas or Western Europe, so we will be adhering to what could broadly be termed "Western" standards. This means we will not be permitting works which sexualize 12 year olds, and nor will we be demanding that every picture of a woman on the site must wear a burqa.
Q: How can you possibly claim to know authorial intent? (Roland Barthes is my co-pilot.)
A: It is not important what the authorial intent was, only the outcome.
Q: Wikipedia have articles on all kinds of awful stuff. Why can't we do the same?
A: Wikipedia is a strictly academic site. They have to cite sources and a "no censorship rule". They also do not aim to be Family Friendly, and are not reliant upon third party ads for funding. Conversely, one of our stated aims is to celebrate fiction, and our generally light, non-negative tone is a reflection of this, which has led to much more gushing about inappropiate content.
Q: So should I take every article here as an endorsement of whatever it describes?
A: No, of course not. We have pages on Greedy Jew, Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf after all. However, if we choose to focus our attention on schoolgirls' thighs or porn, it does reflect very poorly on us. Fan Fic Recommendations are a slightly different issue. If a work is recommended there, this should be taken as an endorsement by the troper who wrote it.
Q: Are we allowed to make forum threads about works processed by the Content Violation Discussions forum?
A: If it was voted "clean and keep", a forum thread is relatively safe as long as it is restricted to talking about the clean parts. Anything with a stronger judgement is discouraged on the forums.
Q: Where can I find decisions regarding a work?
A: They are linked from the discussion page. Sometimes the old list of content reviews or the thread list in this forum can help as well.
Q: I still have some questions/concerns.
A: We will be happy to answer them. There is a thread for this.
- Guro: Violence played for titillation. (contrast Gorn)
- 5P or P5: The panel that administered the policy prior to the review system being overhauled in 2022. See 5P.
- P(a)edoshit: Older term for "P(a)edopandering", deprecated for being inflammatory.
- Porn: A work mostly concerned with sexual arousal. Having NSFW or explicit scenes doesn't automatically make a work porn — it's when showcasing explicit scenes is the entire point of the work.
Also, questions about the policy can be asked here. They will be added to this thread's FAQ section once answered.
Edited by SeptimusHeap on Apr 27th 2024 at 7:29:01 PM
Call me Stick
The purging of pedo-related materials I fully understand, my definition of pedophilia and pedo-pandering is probably much stricter than that of most people here, but I understand and appreciate the general movement.
The purging of so-called pornographic material I view much more negatively. While I agree there should be some common-sense limits, said limits should be extremely minimal. Sexual material is part of fiction as much as anything else, and if we have a "no explicit material" policy, we're hamstringing this wiki's purpose.
edited 21st Aug '12 7:07:29 AM by TroperOnAStickV2
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
Until further notice
As per the explanation posts, we don't have a no "explicit material" policy - we have a no "porn" policy. One of the jobs of 5P is to determine if a work falls into the former or the latter category.
edited 21st Aug '12 7:17:23 AM by Pyrite
Not a substitute for a formal medical consultation.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
Quote from the announcement:
By porn, we do in fact mean porn - not "explicit" or "NSFW", but "porn".
I seem to recall that I mentioned this announcement in the OP. I'm almost sure that I requested that people please read it before posting here.
The announcement makes it quite clear that we're removing porn, not anything with sex in it.
Ninja'd.
The OP is to be edited, so I'm preserving the original here:
This thread is about our content policy. Your questions, complaints and suggestions about the content policy go here.
The main thread for this discussion was locked when it had gone in circles for dozens of pages. There were other, parallel threads about this policy change, and they, too, had the same problem. Instead of reading up on the issue, people panicked and started posting about Orwell and Armageddon. The policy and the administration were strawmanned and people with differing views on what we should allow were taking pot shots at each other instead of having a polite discussion. This got the threads locked, and as a result we were left in a rather unfortunate situation where we didn't have any channel open for this discussion.
As with any other thread, we expect civility here. Mere bitching or personal attacks on the P5 or the administration will be thumped - just because we're the staff doesn't mean that you get to say things that we wouldn't tolerate you saying about other users. We will listen to criticism that is polite and reasonable. Keep that in mind.
Before you post here, we expect you to read the post about this in General Announcements, as well as at least the first post in this thread to get a clue about what is going on. If your question or complaint is already addressed in either of those, don't be surprised if we respond with just a link or a quote.
There is a degree of frustration in the staff at the way this discussion has gone before, as you can clearly see from my description of the previous threads. This is because we read literally over a hundred pages of the earlier discussions before they were closed, and all the content in them would have taken less than 10 pages if there had been no repetition resulting from people posting without reading up on the info we had available by then. I'm sure that you'll understand, then, why I implore you again to read the announcement before you post here. You might not like having to read a long-ish post without a summary, but you must understand that the post is itself a summary, and it is intended to address a host of predictable questions and complains. Sometimes things aren't simple, so you'll just have to read the announcement before posting.
If you have questions or complaints or suggestions after reading the announcement, this is the place where you can ask them.
edited 16th Jan '13 7:24:20 AM by BestOf
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
The P5 panel has done a very good job so far at making a distinction between pornography and stuff that merely has some explicit material. I would not be concerned that there will be a ban on all discussion of sexual material on this wiki. Just be sure you are doing so in a mature and professional manner, because we also have a policy against writing our articles in a lewd manner.
Anyway, I have a question:
Supposing that our article on an entire book series has been cut because one or more books within that series had objectionable content.
Would we be allowed to make a page on individual books in that series if we were to read that book and determine that the specific book did not have the type content that caused concerns about the series as a a whole?
edited 21st Aug '12 8:59:53 AM by Catbert
R.I.P 2 My Youth
I don't see any reason why not (Sengoku Rance and Rance Quest both outlived the Franchise page) although it does raise some issues:
(1) We going to need a way prevent people from creating pages on the books with problematic contents.
(2) This mean that I and my colleagues are going to have to go through all of them as individual works rather than as a whole. Obviously this is going to increase turnaround.
"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen
Concerning (1): Locking the titles of the not allowed work pages could be a try.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
A question: Can this thread be used for requesting minor (i.e not policy changes or bigger changes) in the GA post?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Like 'the wording of X is casing confusion can we change it to Y?'
^Yes.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lost in Space
We're entirely open to constructive criticism and suggestions here. Clarification of wording is one of those things.
Edit: I just got Arha's welcome PM. That's unsettling, even though I should have known it was coming.
edited 21st Aug '12 11:45:19 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Thanks. Here we go, bear in mind that some requests are based on my experience in CVD discussions and might not reflect the actual policy well:
- In the first paragraph, we will no longer be hosting trope examples seems to be jumping the gun a bit - AFAIK, we haven't decided yet on the fate of trope examples except for the obviously problematic ones.
- I am sure we decided to scrap the "p(a)edoshit" term due to the inflammatory nature in favour of the much clearer "pedo-pandering".
- Under "So what is actually happening, and why?", is guro singled out for a specific reason (like pedophilia) or is it treated like any explicit content?
- The section under "What can I do to help clean the site?" contains a few outdated things; I'd suggest to strike the entire section "You can also..." and replace it with the following: You should also leave a summary of your flagging reasons (including explaining the locations of the objectionable content) either in this thread or the article's discussion page to make the investigation easier.
- The "I still have some questions/concerns." section could use a link to this thread.
edited 21st Aug '12 11:59:39 AM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
R.I.P 2 My Youth
Actually, with the advent of this thread, it might be a good time to implement the "Leave a reason or be zapped" idea we have been tossing around.
"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen
That's not very nice, Fighteer.
It'll be especially valuable now that we're running out of things to review. Okay, not especially valuable since when we were overloaded actual information would have helped, but it'll still he useful now. Namely, any further flaggings if they have that reasoning attached would thus be resolvable that much more quickly. When the forum runs out of stuff to do a lot of the people are going to disappear to the ability to review things is really going to decline apart from personal P5 member reviewing. That's not very practical in the case of something like a thousand page novel with no indication that the objectionable scene occurs at the 99% mark and consists of about a page and a half.
Also support the idea of tying flags to explanations on the discussion pages or the forum threads, and flag zaps if these aren't provided. This should make the job of the 5P easier and reduce the amount of misclick/troll flags.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lost in Space
@Arha: I meant that I'm not used to the post-and-instant-PM thing. It creeps me out, especially as I've posted here before. Not the content.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
He's just teasing ya, Fighteer. 
Guro is singled out as it's sexualized violence and not what most people immediately think of when they think of porn. Most people have a much more vanilla thought process and might not realise that it counts. For most people it's just some blanket gross thing.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Lost in Space
I put Guro down in the requirements because I was trying to encapsulate the kind of horrific shock violence that might as well be pornography, but for a different crowd. Snuff films and the like.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
So, basically guro there stands for "porn, but with sexualized violence instead of sexualized sex". Well, that is a good explanation.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Exactly. That's the point of guro.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
likes the cheeses.
So just to clarify, we're not talking about things like Hostel and other entrants in the "Torture Porn" genre?
Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!
No. Sexualized things is what we are talking about.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
To be clear - I know I should know by now, but violence in media is something that makes me universally squeamish - there are sexual elements in the Hostel series, but the qualifier is that the violence, combined with sexual elements, is meant to titillate, not for catharsis?
EDIT: Just got the welcome PM, which is wholly ironic, since I've been here since the beginning of it. XD
edited 21st Aug '12 3:12:17 PM by LargoQuagmire
Just to toss a random example out, Guro would refer more to things like Mai-Chan's Daily Life and other things by that author?
Welcome to the Content Violations Discussion forum, where we discuss whether a work violates The Content Policy.
Remember that the forum rules apply here
, plus the following:
Violations of these rules can result in a ban from the subforum, or from the entire forum.
Otherwise:
Also, keep in mind that there are works that we don't want flagged without a really good reason as they are not likely in violation of policy:
What we're looking for:
A couple of guidelines so the procedure can move smoothly:
Also, in the case of H Games, there is this questioning to fill up:
Q: Why is this happening?
A: Concerning the porn, it tends to attract creepy edits that have brought us into issues with the adservers while not significantly contributing to our core purpose - tropology. Concerning paedophilia-pandering, such works are just plain creepy to have pages about.
Q: What can I do to help clean the site?
.
A: You can flag content as unsuitable using the flag tool, which is located in the Tools menu to the right of each article, keeping the criteria in mind. Also, you can help enforce No Lewdness, No Prudishness across the wiki, possibly though cleaning pages listed in this Long Term Projects thread
Q: This work is not actually/primarily pornographic. Why was it cut?
A: This could be for a number of different reasons. If the work was deemed to be paedopandering, for example, it will be cut whether or not it's actually sexually explicit. Being pro-paedophilia or pandering to paedophiles is bad enough, even if the work is nominally anti-paedophilia. Of course, it's possible that there was a mistake and then you should appeal it - please check the reasons first, however.
Q: This work is being/has been cut, but it is not a violation of the Content Policy. How do I make an appeal?
A: Flag the work page using the button in the sidebar and state your reasons for restoration.
Q: This work is pretty much pure porn, but it's really good porn. Can an exception be made?
A: Nope, sorry. If it's mainly porn, it goes.
Q: Why would you cut this? In [culture x], it is totally acceptable.
A: The vast majority of our readers come from the Americas or Western Europe, so we will be adhering to what could broadly be termed "Western" standards. This means we will not be permitting works which sexualize 12 year olds, and nor will we be demanding that every picture of a woman on the site must wear a burqa.
Q: How can you possibly claim to know authorial intent? (Roland Barthes is my co-pilot.)
A: It is not important what the authorial intent was, only the outcome.
Q: Wikipedia have articles on all kinds of awful stuff. Why can't we do the same?
A: Wikipedia is a strictly academic site. They have to cite sources and a "no censorship rule". They also do not aim to be Family Friendly, and are not reliant upon third party ads for funding. Conversely, one of our stated aims is to celebrate fiction, and our generally light, non-negative tone is a reflection of this, which has led to much more gushing about inappropiate content.
Q: So should I take every article here as an endorsement of whatever it describes?
A: No, of course not. We have pages on Greedy Jew, Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf after all. However, if we choose to focus our attention on schoolgirls' thighs or porn, it does reflect very poorly on us. Fan Fic Recommendations are a slightly different issue. If a work is recommended there, this should be taken as an endorsement by the troper who wrote it.
Q: Are we allowed to make forum threads about works processed by the Content Violation Discussions forum?
A: If it was voted "clean and keep", a forum thread is relatively safe as long as it is restricted to talking about the clean parts. Anything with a stronger judgement is discouraged on the forums.
Q: Where can I find decisions regarding a work?
or the thread list in this forum can help as well.
A: They are linked from the discussion page. Sometimes the old list of content reviews
Q: I still have some questions/concerns.
for this.
A: We will be happy to answer them. There is a thread
Also, questions about the policy can be asked here
. They will be added to this thread's FAQ section once answered.
Edited by SeptimusHeap on Apr 27th 2024 at 7:29:01 PM
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.