The Constructive Criticism Thread

Cut exposition, cap the fountain of angst, find some way to show who Wilhelm is.

Was there anything I did okay?

edited 11th Feb '12 9:30:12 AM by SnowyFoxes

Hey, just chipping in to say that I'll do my best to get to reading this and saying something in the few following days. Again, finals, the insane rat race that is life, etc. and so on.

I think this generally works well. Aside from the way-too-early marriage reveal, you create a good hook by putting these characters in a setting with high emotional stakes so that the reader can get invested very quickly.

I do agree that Wilhelm isn't a very strong character. It's hard to understand why Bianca would be so reluctant to meet him when his reaction is just mild disapproval. He doesn't blow up or act out physically; he doesn't refuse to ever talk to her again; he doesn't seem to be in a position to bring about any serious consequences for her (as, say, telling one's father about one's shotgun marriage might).

Nix one of the "all in all" phrases. I'm not sure if you were going for a parallel structure (in which case you'd need a third repetition, unless there is one and I'm just blind), but either way it just comes across as accidental repetition.

About exposition: Remember that you've got an entire novel. If people read just the first chapter and still have questions, that's a good thing, as long as you give us enough hints to make us want to read the second chapter.

"Was there anything I did okay?"

Most of it, I thought.

I have no useful commentary on this that hasn't been made, save to note that even the errors are not particularly glaring, merely noticeable.

When it takes me around an hour to trudge through a chapter, and I have to exert myself to finish reading, damn - there's something you urgently need to fix. A novel should not feel this way, especially not the beginning.

The main problem stems from your text's disjointed flow throughout: it's sketchy where it shouldn't be, with awkward phrasing and leaving out these essential details that can make it more clear to read instead of ambiguous. In this way it feels like for many of the joke punchlines, they just don't click in right - I thought it was midway through your WIP until re-reading your post that it's your first chapter.

The sense I got behind it all was that while writing your imagination into text, your words already feel vivid to yourself, but to me it comes off vacant: it's like you inadequately convey what you had from mind and as a result Bianca's narration doesn't seem to be.. present. Instead it's repressed and undeveloped, and I felt very little for what could have been an involving scene about her dilemma with Wilhelm. I remember having felt more or less the same from reading your other thread Lantern Slides.

From the beginning, I was a little confused:

The first thought was wondering if Damian and "her brother" are one and the same - or different people. And then Himmelburg, I was reminded of the Hindenburg incident and thought Bianca was watching a dirigible of some sort in the air. No wait, maybe Hindenburg is some guy Bianca had met whose empty eye sockets unsettled her. Alors, it's the district of Hindenburg.

I would fix this as:

There we go, much more congruent phrasing. And here:

I struggled to untangle what you meant. Until I crossed that out.

The burst of inanity here:

is something I felt was utterly unfitting in tone - this whole passage sounds whiny. I know self-consciousness when about to face a very important moment, especially considering you're going to face someone about marriage; Bianca sounds more like her parents didn't let her wear her zoop shoes for prom night.

I have more to say, after I go shopping.

It wasn't bad at all, generally. It's certainly above okay. The best thing being the setting, for me. Sounds interesting enough to make me curious for the rest.

I've just finished cutting most of the parts that you guys have problems with and working on an incident to show that Wilhelm has a loose grip on his marbles.

The bit about the dress was a failed attempt to describe what she looks like and show that Damian is controlling her to make her look like a stupid little girl. How should I redo that?

Which narrators in Lantern Slides? Both of them?

I'm kind of confused about this, so do any of you get that feeling?

edited 11th Feb '12 4:26:42 PM by SnowyFoxes

Damn it, I was the one who told Snowy she was confusing me and then she dumped in all that exposition and I thought it was okay. I guess I should take some responsibility for that.

I think it boils down to "it's bland."

I'm not very good at giving in-depth criticism, but I thought it was good. I thought you did a good job of sliding magic in there unobtrusively so that it seems like a part of the world, without making a big song and dance about it.

I will say, though, that the sentence where Wilhelm "Spewed down the front of Bianca's dress" was an unpleasant mental image and probably not the one you intended.

Hmmmm - I agree with others. Sometimes, you do repeat a point unnecessarily (I only raise this, as it's one of my bad points, so I'm sensitive to it in others).

You don't need to mention an established trait again and again so baldly - for example, Damian's mind reading skill. There are other ways. Maybe later, once mentioned, instead of talking of the skill itself, say something like, "I hate knowing he's in my head. And, I hate knowing he knows I hate it, too. I thought I could get used to it. It seems not." And, then move along with the conversation. Everything established for less.

Not sure if tossing in an "But, I suppose I still love him — he's my brother and we do owe each other something," would help some, as well. This would allow people an excuse for why Bianca sticks with the little streak of sadism for now. Even if it's just a story she is telling herself, it's something to hang on to. Or, pick another excuse that fits better. At the moment, it just seems a bit 'she's in a carriage with a guy she actually loathes (if she's honest with herself) doing things she loathes for a reason she won't give us (and which she probably loathes) and, yet, she has also seemingly chosen this'. The readers need... some excuse (even if it's a vague one, seemingly unrelated to the core) for why. Otherwise... you're in danger of Fanny Price springing to mind. Or Bella.

Also, I'm not so sure she'd even see some of the manipulation of her that Damian does as clearly as she does. Or, maybe I'm missing something (like he just likes it). Unsure. But, I think it's turning the knife a little too fast, too soon. The drip-drip of the horrible relationship could take longer, as you may want to focus on the action a little more.

So much introspection is a little... bogging. But, this is a personal viewpoint, only. I'm one of those who likes to be a lot lost, at first, as the story throws me into it. I like to pick the background up as it goes, like finding currents in a cake.

All in all, though, I'm enjoying it. Just a bit of tightening, and it'll work even better. I would like to read more, which is the important thing, no?

Oh, and Wilhelm either needs to be louder sooner, to justify that dread. Or, the dread shown to be emphasised as an internal embarrassment at having to use him far more than she wants, at the time it's raised. Right now, it feels... a bit flat, for all that build-up. I'm guessing you're going for the 'I really, really don't want to use him. I hate this. I'd rather not' angle, rather than the 'he's going to kill me' one it initially comes across as, right?

edited 11th Feb '12 6:20:05 PM by Euodiachloris

And I may just be thick, but I initially thought Wilhelm was the brother for a bit.

I haven't read any of the posted crits, and will add my own on Monday, with the hope that I don't repeat anything that has already been said.

Redo this with a more solemn tone, with reflecting on how the way she's dressed can be topping to an insult, and how she resents Damien for making her dress this way. It's kinda controlling of Damien, eh?

No, it boils to "I'm your reader, not a mind-gleezer, be more kind and give me mind."

Now, let me continue.. (next post)

Perhaps you can actually start with her plucking uncomfortably at the horrible lace, as she jumps into the conversation. The odd, throw-away, internal comment, but, more likely the body-language whilst wearing it should say more about how she feels about the dress and Damian's taste. You don't have to jump straight away into his motivations, but leave it for the next bit. Just a thought.

I get the impression you're just trying to get as much out there as quickly as possible. Let the body language do the talking. And, then hit with the exposition a little down the line.

For example, after all Bianca's unhappiness with the dress established in the coach, Wilhelm might ask about the dress upon seeing her, if it's not her standard taste (as he does with the hair). Then he finds out that Damian is with her, when she says he chose it out for her. His attitude towards Damian's reasons (even if it's just a pause and a scowl) will say tonnes. You don't have to. Stuff like that.

edited 11th Feb '12 7:54:29 PM by Euodiachloris

Plain English, if you would be so kind.

Okay, I'll just write out things as they occur to me...

I am groaning inside as I realize that I will actually need to suspend my disbelief reading something written in the present tense from a first person perspective. I can't speak for anyone else, but as far as I'm concerned this evokes images of Miss Informtion from Histeria as she leads on the tourists, proclaiming "I'm walking, I'm walking, I'm breathing, I'm breathing...". Why do you spit on our precious stylistic conventions? Have you no decency?

You may want to get rid of "his customary monotone" and its ilk. I won't go into the great debate about whether adverbs need to be killed on sight, but 1. that's definitely a Show, Don't Tell violation, and 2. this is your first line, and the reader is starving for clues as to what is even happening- Who's speaking to whom? Who are these people and what do they want? Why are they there? The "customary monotone" thing feels like Ted Mosby butting in, proclaiming "Fun Fact!"

Flee! It's the exposition beam! You're slipping up here in the exact same thing you pulled off perfectly a sentence before. I'm reading this and thinking, "oh, I get it, this is not the narrator thinking, this is my welcome to the plot speech". She's going to confront this Wilhelm person later, and I bet it's going to be a big spectacle. It could serve as this scene's climax, even- and there you're wasting it on dryly reciting it to me up front.

No need to spoonfeed the reader (which, by the way, is a metaphor). "I am not looking forward to this conversation", and you're done.

The dialogue works great, it's just that the huge "I wish I could tell him..." tangent a bit earlier derailed my train of thought, and I forgot what they were even talking about. I'm not saying I'm the archetypal reader or something, but consider whether you may want to put more emphasis on firmly establishing the main line of what this scene and/or conversation is about.

Actually this works fine, it's just that it springs up suddenly without any provocation.

You may want to look into quotes formatting. If I'm not mistaken you need to start a new paragraph whenever someone new speaks. So stuff like

isn't supposed to happen.

It strikes me at this point that the prose is very... detached. Is this girl visiting a friend or performing an algorithm? I keep expecting her to feel something- a glint of light, a distant memory, a smell, a taste, a sound, some kind of emotion- but nothing. This is your big advantage when working with a first person perspective- letting the reader close to the narrator, intimate even. Don't let it go to waste!

This is the sort of thing that works great in third person limited. That little sleight of hand, she picks up the doll and she smiles, and the reader fills in the rest. As far as my impressions go, it's not at all something you should be trying to pull off in first person limited. "I pick up the doll and smile"? That's her response to something triggering a precious childhood memory?..

She's alive! She judges him! She has feelings! See, this is the kind of thing that works in the first person.

I...

Well.

So far this has come across as an urban fantasy sort of thing. Things start out similar to the world I'm familiar with from that wonderful thing known as real life. All right, the stakes will probably rise and eventually, perhaps, we would be dealing with something important that needs to be fought for, one way or the other.

But a guy who wants to wipe out humanity, Right off the bat! And they talk about it so casually! I'm not even sure that's the kind of character that belongs in this kind of story, with its current atmosphere. I can't reconcile "droll yet awakward family visit, people struggling with first world problems such as families disapproving of marriages" with "there are people in this world who would like to see the human race wiped out, and presumably have some kind of working plan of how they would go about achieving that goal". It does not compute! And Bianca actually wants to marry this guy?

Bianca casts Summon Derail IV and poor Wilhelm rolls a 1 on his saving throw.

The narrator showing signs of life again. Good. Do more of that.

The monologue that follows is Bianca relating a rather intimate part of her life story, except she does it in the fit-for-third-person way again, like she herself doesn't actually have any emotional stakes in what happened. Lots of telling instead of showing. You might want to do something about that.

From here on I don't see any issues that I haven't mentioned earlier, except for one thing perhaps: This chapter lacks focus. It kind of wanders. This isn't something you're obligated to do, but from my experience holding reader interest is very difficult when you don't constantly give them some idea of what to expect- and then throw that out the window, of course, but in a way that they can relate to what they expected. And then you give them something new to expect.

You start with the wedding thing then suddenly we're talking about Wilhelm's academic duties, then on to Bianca's life story, then Vespers and the dangers they're under. It's one thing after another. The chapter has no cohesive plot thread to it, no hook and reel. The wedding thing totally looked like a hook, and I think this scene would have been much better off sorting that thing out and dropping all the rest as background information to be gleaned by the reader (and anything too important to be background can be dealt with in later chapters).

So, uh, I really hope that didn't come out too harsh. Keep in mind that everyone's a critic, and it was infinitely easier for me to spew forth the above post than it was for you to actually sit down and write all of that. This really has a lot of promise. You know how to restrain yourself with the speculative elements and you're actually writing about people and their intrigues rather than stereotypes and plot devices (so much so that I'm kind of disappointed that the Vespers and the magic and whatnot are likely going to take away all the attention from that soon enough).

edited 11th Feb '12 10:10:22 PM by TripleElation

It's too late for me (at night) to do a full critique, but I would like to say this:

You're off in the right direction. You end with the right spark for the plot, with Bianca potentially in danger and Wilhelm being summoned. However, I must agree that the conversation lacks focus. It starts with a bang, suffers a saggy middle, and waits until the end to pick up again. You could try rearranging the topics, with Bianca instead trying to delay the inevitable before dropping the wedding bomb. Or you can disperse with some of the topics and just have the wedding and he Vesper topics. You can try showing tension rising and possibly Wilhelm sensing that something's wrong, if that's suitable for his character.

I did sense something off with the first line, but Triple Elation nailed the reason.

Oh, and while I can see bits of Wilhelm's personality leaking through (such as the part which he says how he gets drunk to avoid people), I expect a little more from him.

edited 11th Feb '12 10:13:12 PM by chihuahua0

"You may want to get rid of "his customary monotone" and its ilk. I won't go into the great debate about whether adverbs need to be killed on sight, but 1. that's definitely a Show, Don't Tell violation"

Not to confuse matters, but I don't know that I agree with this. For one thing, it's hard to show a monotone in text. So putting that he speaks in a monotone means the reader will always read that character in a monotone.

But I'm not a very good writer, nor much of a reader.

I'm also not sure I agree with you about the moment with the doilies. I found it fairly effective.

Overall, the main problem seems to be trying to include too much at once. Definitely remove the line, "I don't need a mind-reading brother to know that." You mention him reading her mind a few lines later, so it's not needed and feels awkward.

Move the part about the dress; it's in the wrong place. Might work a bit better either before she rings the bell or before she knocks on the door.

Maybe bring the part with Damian's letter to before she drops the marriage bombshell. Make it a big of nervous small talk as they dance around the elephant in the room of Wilhelm wanting to know where she was.

And more emotion in general. We're told she was dreading meeting Wilhelm, but the meeting doesn't come across as particularly tense or emotional.

I'm sorry that I missed the opportunity to critique your chapter, Snowy. If there is still some time by tomorrow night, I'll try to read over it. However, I may be behind in the next few rounds. School work and the like...

edited 11th Feb '12 10:51:05 PM by BetsyandtheFiveAvengers

It's the "customary" bit that mainly bothered me. Of course there's nothing wrong with saying a character speaks in monotone.

Anyway, I think it's healthy that different people are giving differing, and even conflicting, advice. This makes it very clear that the critic is not always right, and you should consider whether a critic's arguments carry weight instead of deferring to them automatically.

NOTE: 99% of any crankiness here results from the fact that I'm sleepy and annoyed at homework.

Well, how else am I supposed to show that he always speaks in monotone other than saying so? You can't figure that out from just reading the dialogue. I guess I don't have to put that right at that place, but this feels a little unfair.

Oh hai ninja'd.

As Terminal Optimist already explained, I had to put in this stuff because he got so confused when he was reading it that he didn't want to go on and then he said "everything's cool now," and now no one else seems to think it was a good idea and now I'm lost.

Wilhelm was supposed to be yelling there. Can't imagine why I forgot to add that in :/

And now, to address all the things about Bianca being detached from everything. The first reason why this was done to contrast with Wilhelm's narration, which is borderline stream of consciousness. The other reason is because at this point in the story, she feels that she isn't allowed to make any more choices and she's fallen into a state of apathy where displays of emotion tend to be robotic. Part of her character development is getting over this.

Okay, I'll come up with some transitional-ish points in the conversation so it flows better.

edited 11th Feb '12 11:07:53 PM by SnowyFoxes

This is my bad. I missed the "It's uncomfortable, to say the least, when the best friend you've ever had hates you." bit, which gives her the excuse to wax expositional*

As to the "talking casually" part, that's not what I meant. Actually, here

It's pretty obvious he's not talking calmly or rationally. What I mean is that the theme whiplash is so strong, and the characters just breeze by it. No one is lowering their voice to a whisper, or showing signs of existential dread — as if guys who want to destroy humanity is something they get a lot.

edited 11th Feb '12 11:28:27 PM by TripleElation

edited 12th Feb '12 9:10:27 AM by TerminalOptimist

John, I can answer for myself. Please blank that post.