Humans are bastards. But so is all life on Earth, so that's OK

Not only that, people that are unhappy often lash out at the world around them, causing quite a bit of suffering. Misery does breed evil, though it isn't the only thing that does. You could even say that you owe it to the people around you to make sure you take care of yourself, first; it won't be doing anyone any favors in the long run if you've got nothing left to give.

Of course, most people wouldn't even need to make that rationalization in the first place, since "become happier" is pretty much a universal constant (See, there goes that self-interest again!).

When I think that humans are bastards, it does not mean that humans are just running around gleefully kicking puppies for no reason whatsoever. Most of humans are fairly decent in everyday situations. But there exist situations in which most humans would act as bastards. I know for sure I would. However, there are exceptions - that's why calling humans bastards is possible at all. Perhaps you are an exception. I am more than willing to assume about every person in particular that they might be an exception until proven otherwise.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

What kind of situations do you mean? Becoming a dictator or what?

edited 28th Dec '11 12:14:26 PM by kay4today

Calling someone a misanthrope just because they don't have a rose-colored glasses view on humanity is no better than calling someone unpatriotic because they are are critical of their country.

There's no justice in the world and there never was~

@kay4today

No. Even common peer pressure is enough for many.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

Maybe. I'm not like this, I think... but you never know...

edited 28th Dec '11 1:26:15 PM by kay4today

It's kinda unfair to judge human nature based on outside influences that force humans to not act to their own will.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.

What do you mean with "outside influences"? Getting drunk with power is probably very easy, but I don't think it's impossible to resist it.

I was referring to the peer pressure example, specifically.

Power barely applies as it's basically putting a person in a situation and not an influence.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.

It's also possible to resist peer pressure.

It is. It's still an outside circumnstance. And depending on the kind of pressure, it sometimes doesn't become a matter of two balanced options, but of two unbalanced ones.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.

This phrase reeks of dishonesty, and I'm near enough sure that you're trying to manipulate how my perspective is seen. Not a good debate tactic, unless it's carried out with subtlety enough that no-one notices.

I have not been arguing that humanity is good. I have been arguing that it is far from inherently bad. My view is that each person is a blank slate from birth, and how "good" or "bad" they are is shaped after that point.

And yeah, I certainly think it's misanthropic that a bunch of First World teens and twenty-somethings are making negative judgements about a sample size of near seven billion people.

edited 28th Dec '11 7:18:09 PM by MadassAlex

Swordsman Troper — Reclaiming The Blade — Watch

Everyone has opinions, some more optimistic than others, some more pessimistic than others. A sample representation or hand selected sample will still not account for the billions of people and their complex brains and inner workings. To call humans all bastards or all good is over simplifying things to begin with. This topic was irrelevant from the get go.

The emotions of others can seem like such well guarded mysteries, people 8egin to 8elieve that's how their own emotions should 8e treated.

You know, when you say stuff like this, you make me remember why I respect you.

Then you ramble on about swords and ruin everything.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.

With that in mind, swords are very very clearly good.

Swordsman Troper — Reclaiming The Blade — Watch

Tabula rasa, bitches.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

Of course, tabula rasa doesn't really mean anything, as anybody with a basic understanding of sociology already understands that morality is a product of socialization, and thus tabula rasa should be taken as simple fact.

What is debatable is whether humanity is naturally inclined to selfishness or altruism, which are not the same as morality; rather, they are the basic incentive-creators for morality in any given scenario.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

Tabula Rasa is also a good name for a band.

In seriousness, I consider this a pointless question, as I do with most statements beginning with "humans are...." that don't end with some biological fact. There are just too many unknowns to come up with what would be a satisfactory answer to me.

go ahead and do every stupid thing you can imagine

Meh. Humans aren't bastards. They just are as parasitic as all the other lifeforms of Earth.

In the end, we are all ultimately feeding on a dying sun. That's just how the world rolls.

We're all carrion eaters, and i'm fine with it.

The Great Northern Threadkill.

As been said above, it is possible to resist. Were it impossible, then of course humans would not be bastards for giving in.

But that's the thing - when I'm saying that humans are bastards, I am talking about inherent tendency to react like bastards in certain situations. You have said that such examples do not demonstrate humanity's true nature, but I think that tendency to react to certain influences in a certain way is also part of said nature

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

I respectfully repeat once again: Can we please leave the word "bastard" out of this conversation?

Not only is it unfair to illegitimate children, its status as a slur and a curse guarantees that we will never agree on the criteria that constitutes "bastardry".

I'd rather say that human nature is fundamentally good, but imperfect.

No one, apart from moustache-twirling fictional villains, makes a conscious choice to favor Evil over Good. I'd even go as far to say that doing so is almost impossible — not fully so, perhaps, but it's definitely a low-percentage possibility.

When people do evil things, it seems to me that the main causes for that are

1. Mistaken assumptions over what is and isn't good, or
2. Lack of self-control, combined with some natural impulses that are not evil in themselves but that can lead to evil behaviour if not kept in check by our higher natures.

edited 29th Dec '11 1:10:20 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

...

~picks up personal morality textbook~

Well, that was a very bland, very Catholic answer, judging from my Catholic high school textbook which basically says the same thing in the same way. Come on man, let's see something new!

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

Something new? All right.

All evil in the world is caused by saturated fats. You see, by eating them you allow tiny demons to enter you and take residence in your pineal gland, from where they can pilot your behaviour without you even noticing that.

The only way to avoid that is to never eat anything containing saturated fats — if you ever did, even just once, you'll need to have your pineal gland surgically replaced.

Happy?

edited 29th Dec '11 1:17:54 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Well damn, I guess I'm gonna need money for some surgery. Fucking American healthcare system. :/

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."