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Venezuela and the Chavez Legacy

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TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#4276: Feb 17th 2021 at 7:29:40 PM

Ortega's got his paramilitaries working for him, suppressing the true heirs to Sandino's legacy - Chavez could definitely whip up a mob fast, Maduro probably just uses regular orders.

Anyway, thanks, that's telling.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4277: Feb 17th 2021 at 7:41:23 PM

Yeah, Maduro dosent have the same level of magnetic narciciste personality like chavez have and the fact chavez die dry a lot of suport of chavismo.

You could said the same will happen to trumpism, I can asure that.

In fact, you gringos should study more venezuela, it got some intersting parallel with trumpism in general.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#4278: Feb 17th 2021 at 7:43:42 PM

Will do. Feel free to PM me.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4279: Feb 18th 2021 at 2:47:07 AM

I will try to do it here because I feel is a intersting topic:

-I think the biggest parallelism between trumpism and chavismo is how it took their countries by surprise and to be fair, is not surprising, people rarely if ever execpting this of this magnituded so I cant blame ether country to be unprepared, I dont think any country can deal so well with this.

-It show more or less how polarization occur: First you create a sort of division of santification-demonization, tautological templar thinking and white and black insanity, this is the first step because it set the tone by creating the narrative.

And with this narrative, another parallel is the sense of "NOTHING IS THE SAME ANYMORE" and "IT SHOULD BE", people dosent know but for a while Venezuela really did get a boom with oil back in the 60 and 70, to the point the bolivar was stronger than the dollar for a while and venezuela was know them as venezuela saudi for that, granted it wasnt a paradise and there was plenty huge gap between the rich and the poor but it was good for a while and it get a taste of wealth, them the whole thing crash and crash fast with the black friday(no, not THAT black friday), were bolivar suffer a huge devualation, thing get to worse with the caracazo, when people riot in the street leaving thousand deads and more wounded, while I loathe chavez it easy to see why people flow to him to some extent....but if im honest that dosent asolve those people, but unlike US I cant just said they were racist or white supremacist, plenty of poor people with dreams vote for them and...yes, enable him and did for a decade and a half.

-The second part is the punches against the system, something polarizer do is atack the democracy itself because the narrative demanded, after all once you stablish you are the good guy and everything you do is by definition, good, things start reaaaaaally go downhill, I call this the "Why not?" spiral, where you deshuminzed your oponent to such a extent that the idea of letting them do something is seen as sort of viper and the farmer aseop, after all if the democrat, the oposition, the "other" Is so vile, what should you allow them to speak? why not just take their posion voices? why just prohibit them to take any political position? why not just stop them from doing something? why not, why not, why not just.....kill them all......

It make seen weird but it create this weird paradoxial double think were it give you a outlet to do cruelty while also claming you are being virtuous because now the political game have being same in a view of territorialization, everything most be yours by any means necesary, is why I dont think republican are puting party over country, they in fact belive like chavismo, that party IS country, they have fused one and the other in one entity and because of that, they santified the naked pursuit of power because that means your home is save from the enemy.

Which it let us to the final point here: Violence, Sooner or later a polarizer will used, feed or entretain though of violence for simple reason: the "other" are see as inhuman and therefore worty of scorn, the democratic and liberal process are seen as chains that allow the enemy to govern, therefore violence become a prize virture for polarizers because is seen as the display of rightfull power that is entitled to the polarizing party, the reivindication of the volk if you want it, this is divide in three: first violence action are seen as normal or aceptable in a sort of victim blaming way, second promise of violence become apriaciate by the public and finally violence become a virtue that is not only acepted but expected by political actors in this phase is when things have become beyond ugly into truly nasty stuff like jaling political oponent, murder and gods-know-what.

This if course also present the key weakness of polarizing: it dosent sustain itselt, is a sort of imperalist ideology that need adepts, new ground, new oponents, if contain sucessfully it will simply burn itself to death because it need conflict to spread, it also show another major weakness is that polarizing party cant lead for shit since nearly all the good expertise needed for that run away from the constant fighting and ideological purity, creating a sort of brain drain in the party so they just double down in awfullness when things dosent go in their way since they dont know what else to do, Chavez always increse public spending when he need more votes and Trump ride on the previous administration achivements ensuring a somewhat stable powerbase for a while, but when maduro atempt to play like chavez failed he change to represion FAST, meanwhile Trump eventually got into a point he he could not increse his popularity which pretty much doom him to lose.

So more or less those are the similarity and the three phases of polarization, there is a four but that is the after efect and really I still working on it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#4280: Feb 18th 2021 at 7:37:23 PM

It's a good analysis, and a perspective that most Yanquis are unlikely to have thought of. I'd like to see where you go with this.

Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#4281: Feb 18th 2021 at 10:30:36 PM

I spotted one photo on social media (doing assessment on a personal basis) that has the message for US "imposing democracy" = chaos.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4282: Feb 24th 2021 at 9:58:13 AM

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/venezuela-expels-persona-non-grata-eu-ambassador/2155986

"Venezuela expelled the EU’s ambassador in response to sanctions the bloc imposed against Venezuelan officials earlier this week.

"Today, by decision of President Nicolas Maduro, we presented to Mrs. Isabel Brilhante her declaration as persona non grata," said Foreign Minister Jorge Arreaza.

Arreaza’s remarks were made after he met Brilhante to discuss the situation. The meeting included diplomatic representatives from France, Spain, the Netherlands and Germany.

The Venezuelan National Assembly urged Maduro on Tuesday to declare Brilhante “persona non grata” to proceed with her expulsion.

The Assembly also demanded a full revision of the EU’s presence in Venezuela.

“I vote with both hands for the EU representative to be declared persona non grata,” Assembly Speaker Jorge Rodriguez said while calling for a vote.

This decision comes after the EU decided Monday to sanction 19 Venezuelan officials for “undermining democracy” in the South American country.

The EU has sanctioned 55 Venezuelan officials, freezing assets in the EU and blocking travel to member states.

"

This was hour after Venezuela ban guaido and other of taking a 15 years ban that prohibit them to take a political job in the country.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
eagleoftheninth In the name of being honest from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
In the name of being honest
#4283: Mar 8th 2021 at 8:39:42 PM

Biden extends protective status to thousands of Venezuelan migrants.

    Article 
The Biden administration on Monday declared an estimated 320,000 Venezuelan migrants in the United States eligible for temporary protected status, a category of legal residence that would open a path to U.S. citizenship for them under the immigration bill President Biden sent to Congress last week.

Eligibility extends only to Venezuelans in the country as of March 8 who apply within the next 180 days and meet vetting requirements. The program is intended to protect those who are unable to return home safely because of natural disaster, violence or civil unrest.

“The living conditions in Venezuela reveal a country in turmoil, unable to protect its own citizens,” said Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas, who officially made the designation.

The decision to grant temporary protected status, or TPS, marked the most visible step thus far toward the implementation of campaign pledges Biden made to adopt a Venezuela policy differing from that of President Donald Trump.

Biden promised to increase humanitarian aid to those suffering from scarce food and medicine inside Venezuela, as well as the millions of Venezuelan refugees scattered across Latin America. He said he would mobilize more international pressure to force President Nicolás Maduro to negotiate with opposition leaders toward free and fair elections and to combat corruption that — along with heavy U.S. sanctions — has brought the Venezuelan economy to near-ruin.

But any significant changes will be difficult to see. Trump sanctions remain in effect and “under review,” according to a senior administration official who briefed reporters on the TPS decision. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity under White House ground rules.

Any increased international focus on more-coordinated pressure on Maduro has been largely overshadowed by major foreign policy challenges elsewhere.

Even the TPS implementation provided little substantive change for Venezuelans who have fled to the United States, most of them to Florida.

Legal residence is important to a key voting bloc in the state. While Trump had repeatedly refused to grant TPS to Venezuelans — and his administration secretly deported a number of them — he won Florida in last year’s election with a strong boost from Hispanic voters there after alleging that Biden would bring Venezuela-style socialism to the country.

But on his last full day in office, Trump authorized deferred enforcement departure, or DED, for Venezuelans, giving them temporary immunity from immigration action. Both the Trump order and TPS are good for 18 months and cost $545 in application and approval fees with work authorization.

Biden will face additional tests later this year when previously granted TPS expires for hundreds of thousands of refugees from other countries living in the United States under the program. Trump terminated the status for nationals of El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, Nepal, Nicaragua and Sudan — including some who had been in the country many years under repeated extensions — although those actions were blocked by ongoing legal challenges.

Biden’s immigration bill, which is likely to encounter major challenges in Congress, would include migrants living in the United States under TPS and DED among those eligible for permanent residence, followed by citizenship after three years.

The vast majority of the nearly 5 million Venezuelan migrants who have fled economic devastation and the authoritarian regime over the past three years are in Latin America.

Biden’s move comes one month after Colombia — which hosts 1.7 million Venezuelan migrants — won international praise for offering them 10-year temporary protection status, a step that is set to help them gain access to coronavirus vaccines.

Maduro has recently expressed measured optimism that a Biden administration could spell a shift in the Trump sanctions, although the senior administration official said the new administration “is in no rush” to lift them.

The administration has also said it does not intend to negotiate with Maduro, a task it believes should be left to the Venezuelan opposition.

“There is always room for dialogue,” Maduro said during a news conference last month. “There are sectors in the United States that interpret this as a sign of weakness. . . . I hope there is thorough rectification of these policies.”

Venezuelan opposition officials say they believe the Biden team may be better positioned than the Trump administration to work with European allies, who have resisted some measures to ramp up pressure on Maduro.

Last week, Secretary of State Antony Blinken made his first formal contact with opposition leader Juan Guaidó, who is recognized by the United States and dozens of other nations as Venezuela’s legitimate leader. The opposition, which remains divided over Guaidó’s continued leadership, has worked with U.S. officials to try to formulate a new strategy for maintaining internal unity and pressure on Maduro.

“The United States continues to be one of our main allies in achieving a transition,” Guaidó tweeted after the telephone conversation. He later told a Colombian news outlet that “we always had confidence in the Biden administration, and we have it today.”

Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#4284: Mar 26th 2021 at 9:55:33 PM

A DW documentary made by a French-Venezuelan journalist.

Basically a history on how Venezuela became a failed state...

Edited by Ominae on Mar 26th 2021 at 10:26:23 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#4285: Mar 26th 2021 at 10:16:02 PM

[up]FYI for a vid about 40 minutes long, it might be a good idea to include a tl:dw of stuff you think is relevant in said vid.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#4286: Apr 25th 2021 at 1:49:21 AM

Business Insider did a documentary vid on the "failed incursion" to Venezuela.

eagleoftheninth In the name of being honest from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
In the name of being honest
#4287: Apr 26th 2021 at 8:09:48 AM

Editorialised title, but: In the Venezuelan ‘Workers’ Paradise,’ very different pandemics for the haves and have-nots.

    Article 
CARACAS, Venezuela — Venezuela’s raging coronavirus outbreak had filled nearly every hospital bed in the capital, leaving the Fuentes family scrambling when three of its members came down with acute cases of covid-19 at virtually the same time.

Their solution: Build their own medical ward inside their four-bedroom home.

Across Latin America, the haves and the have-nots are living and dying in two radically different pandemics — a natural extension of the economic inequality lived daily by 652 million people from the Rio Grande to Tierra del Fuego. In one of the most unequal regions of the globe — and among the hardest hit by the coronavirus — perhaps no single country is witnessing a larger gap than the “Workers’ Paradise”: Nicolás Maduro’s Venezuela.

Doctors here say the need for patients to source their care privately, or to purchase their own medical supplies for use in bare-bones public hospitals, is leaving untold numbers of poor Venezuelans to die during the pandemic. But the Fuenteses, aided financially by a family member now living in the United States, were able to buy oxygen tanks, IV drips, saline solution, needles and other costly supplies, then hire nurses to provide 24-hour care at home.

Like other Latin Americans in the middle and upper classes, they paid for doctors to make house calls. They even bought lifesaving courses of remdesivir, sourced from a burgeoning local black market for coronavirus drugs, at $140 per dose. After a total outlay of $20,000 in three weeks — a sum equal to 1,667 years worth of salary at Venezuela’s minimum wage — two ill family members have recovered. A third remains hooked up to oxygen and under 24-hour care, his condition gradually improving.

“If you don’t have money, you don’t have a chance,” said Belinda Fuentes, a 44-year old fitness instructor in New York who emptied her life savings to help her parents and older brother.

For thousands in Latin America, where the richest 1 percent earn 21 percent of the region’s income, double the average in the industrialized world, survival in a worsening pandemic is boiling down to economics.

“Sometimes, it’s just about the cost of oxygen, which some health services do not have enough of,” said Ciro Ugarte, director of health emergencies at the Pan American Health Organization. “Families are having to buy it and bring it to hospitals. If they don’t have the money, in severe cases, their family member will probably die.”

In Brazil, the epicenter of the region’s coronavirus crisis, cases are still surging, overburdening a health-care system skewed to serve the rich. Of the 45,848 intensive care beds in Brazil, slightly more than half are in costly private hospitals that serve a quarter of the population.

During Mexico’s punishing second coronavirus wave in January, more than 50 percent of covid-19 patients admitted to hospitals run by the Mexican Social Security Institute, the nation’s largest public health network, subsequently died. The rate in better-funded private hospitals was 20 percent, according to an analysis commissioned by the World Health Organization and released last week by the Institute for Global Health Sciences at the University of California at San Francisco.

Private hospitals in Latin America, where care can cost upward of $2,000 a day, remain largely the purview of the very rich. Home care is emerging as a less expensive alternative, even as it drains the resources of a middle class devastated by pandemic-related job losses.

Dario Morales, a 36-year-old flight attendant in Peru, said his mother was infected in February. His stepfather, also diagnosed with the coronavirus, had died days earlier at a public hospital in the coastal city of Trujillo.

To avoid that fate, his mother pleaded with him to pay for home care. The bill for 10 days of oxygen, specialized drugs and in-home care from nurses and doctors: a financially crippling $2,800. He managed to cover it by giving up his apartment and moving in with friends.

“If we took her to a public hospital, it would have been, ‘Oh sorry, we don’t have space,’" Morales said. “Even if they did find a bed, she’d get no attention because there are too many patients and too few doctors and nurses.”

In Venezuela, a broken socialist state, the public health-care system has been so weakened that its citizens bear the highest out-of-pocket health-care costs in Latin America. Venezuelans cover 63 percent of their health expenditures on average, according to WHO and Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development data — nearly double the rate in Chile, and more than four times that of Argentina.

Public hospitals are so underequipped and underfunded that one survey found that 92 percent of X-ray machines did not work and 68 percent of facilities lacked consistent running water. Patients routinely supply their own oxygen, needles, antibiotics and saline solution.

After sidestepping the worst of the pandemic last year, Venezuela ended strict lockdowns in December and has now witnessed a terrible surge. Official data from President Maduro’s opaque authoritarian government show roughly 183,000 infected and 1,900 dead. But those numbers, doctors say, do not begin to capture the true extent of the outbreak.

“If you got sick today, I have nowhere to put you,” said Julio Castro, an infectious-diseases specialist and adviser to the Venezuelan opposition on the coronavirus response. “For a year we have warned that things could get worse, and now the worst is happening.”

The pandemic has exacerbated scarcities of medical supplies and drugs, fueling a proliferation of Whats App chat rooms filled with private vendors offering oxygen concentrators for $5,000 and oxygen tanks for $500. Those are sums accessible only to the small and disappearing middle class and wealthy elites, leaving thousands of Venezuelans in need to turn to social media or GoFundMe sites.

In what once was South America’s richest nation per capita, years of corruption and mismanagement and falling oil prices have fueled deeper inequality. The rich and connected buy imported foods and lavish cars and belong to elegant country clubs. The extreme poor — 79.3 percent of the nation, according to a survey by Andres Bello Catholic University in Caracas — live in squalor, often in violent slums, and lack adequate food. Many have lost weight from what some call “the Maduro diet.”

Venezuela has secured precious few vaccine doses, and has reserved them for emergency responders and the elderly. Still, some elites have managed to access them. One wealthy Venezuelan said he had obtained the Russian Sputnik V vaccine through a personal local contact. The man, who spoke on the condition of anonymity out of fear of government retribution, said he had purchased vaccinations for himself and several staff members from the Domingo Luciani Hospital in Caracas at $200 a dose.

“If you have the money to pay, you can talk to the [nurse] on the floor and get what you need,” he said.

For the poorest Venezuelans, meanwhile, the cost of the pandemic is fatally high.

Marilin Mijares came down with the covid-19 symptoms of cough, exhaustion and difficulty breathing two weeks ago. Her daughter Marialber Cabrera, a 35-year old who resells used goods in the northern state of Aragua, said she pleaded with the staff at two public hospitals to admit her.

“They were both at full capacity,” Cabrera said. “There was no room.”

Even if a bed became free, she was told, the family would have to provide the supplies — medical gloves ($15 a box), masks ($10 a box), an oxygen tank ($100) and refills ($50 each). For Cabrera’s father, a security guard who earns $6 a month, the cost was unimaginably high.

Cabrera’s grandmother had caught the virus and recovered, so they began a similar treatment for her mother at home: a combination of vitamins and ibuprofen purchased with donations from neighbors and extended family. But her mother’s symptoms worsened. When her breathing became extremely labored, Cabrera began begging private suppliers.

“I told them over the phone that we didn’t have any money and that my mom really needed oxygen,” she said, her voice breaking. “They just said, ´There is nothing we can do for you if you can’t pay.’”

Her family began a grim vigil, trying to comfort her mother as her condition deteriorated.

“The last time I saw her, she asked me to give her a shower,” Cabrera said. “She told me she loved me and that her love was unconditional and forever.”

The next morning, Cabrera was in line at a public hospital attempting to arrange an X-ray appointment for her mother when her father called. Mijares had started to “suffocate.”

“My dad was crying, saying she couldn't breathe,” Cabrera said. “My neighbors helped my father put her in a car. She died there. She couldn't breathe.”

“If she had had oxygen, my mother would still be alive,” she said. “What we are living is horrible.”

Now, both she and her father have come down with symptoms.

“Everything is in God’s hands now,” she said.

Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4288: Apr 26th 2021 at 8:22:35 AM

"“Everything is in God’s hands now,” she said. "

It is to late.

it was already to late.

it is and it it always be to late.

Is the only think worth saying a this point.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#4289: Apr 26th 2021 at 11:57:12 AM

So the little war Maduro is waging is to remove the FARC dissidents from Apure. Of course, the ELN is very much still aligned with Maduro.

I know ELN and FARC argued a lot.

In the end, el pueblo suffers, and the poor Wayuu have nowhere else to run.

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Apr 26th 2021 at 11:58:00 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#4290: Apr 26th 2021 at 12:49:15 PM

They already had a battle, the Venezuelan army lost. Four confirmed deaths, many missing

Watch me destroying my country
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4291: May 31st 2021 at 11:41:31 AM

Also post in latin american: "And now for a couple of bad news: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-argentina-limagroup-idUSKBN2BG2VA

BUENOS AIRES (Reuters) - Argentina said on Wednesday it would withdraw from the “Lima Group” of Latin American nations, blasting the regional bloc’s policy of isolating Venezuela under President Nicolas Maduro and noting it has “led to nothing.” The Lima Group was established by 12 Latin American nations in the Peruvian capital in 2017, with the goal of helping to restore democracy in Venezuela` through a “peaceful and negotiated solution.”

Argentina’s foreign ministry said it agreed with the group’s mission but said that the “participation” of the Venezuelan opposition, led by Juan Guaido, in the bloc had “led to the adoption of positions that our government has not and can not stand by.”

Argentina under right-leaning former President Mauricio Macri was a strident critic of Maduro, but his successor, the center-left Alberto Fernandez, has since backed off that stance.

“The best way to help Venezuelans is by facilitating an inclusive dialogue that does not favor any particular sector, to achieve elections accepted by the majority with international oversight,” the foreign ministry said in the Wednesday statement.

Argentina added that sanctions and blockades against Venezuela, together with the economic crisis brought on by the pandemic, “have only aggravated the situation of its population. and, in particular, that of its most vulnerable sectors.”

The Lima Group includes Brazil, Canada, Chile, Colombia and Peru, among several other smaller Latin American nations.

https://www.lapatilla.com/2021/05/29/argentina-chavismo-socios/ (news in spanish).

And in other new after that argentina is trying to tie their comercial and buissness tie with venezuela.

https://www.lapatilla.com/2021/05/28/amnistia-internacional-preocupada-por-retiro-de-argentina-de-la-denuncia-contra-maduro/

https://www.lapatilla.com/2021/05/28/borges-rechazo-decision-de-argentina-de-retirar-el-apoyo-a-la-denuncia-contra-el-regimen-en-la-cpi/

https://www.lapatilla.com/2021/05/27/macri-gobierno-argentino-alineado-maduro/

Of course the internacional amisty and julio borges seen worry with argentina retirng from lima group. And of course, macri have warned that the new goverment is more align with maduro than the people of venezuela.

......uffffff, typical, you cant count on latinoamerica for anything, and of course latin american left always siding with one another even when they shoudnt, pfffff.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#4292: Aug 6th 2021 at 10:02:53 PM

Looks like Maduro is ready to talk with the opposition.

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4294: Aug 6th 2021 at 10:42:36 PM

Maduro talk to the oposition is the same as trump taking to democrats: it boils down to "I will tell you suck my dick, them eat shit and die and you can suck my dick, eath shit and die", easy peasy right?.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#4295: Aug 7th 2021 at 6:53:05 AM

Looks like Caracas is doing something with their currency...

megarockman from Sixth Borough Since: Apr, 2010
#4296: Aug 7th 2021 at 9:18:52 AM

Just redenomination. Nothing out of the ordinary for countries that have suffered from too much hyperinflation and want to stop using a bunch of zeros every time they want to buy groceries.

Polarity Nightmare Fetishist from Caracas, Venezuela Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: If the gov't can read my mind, they know I'm thinking of you
#4297: Sep 2nd 2021 at 12:47:23 PM

So I decided to get more involved with you guys. What's new? I'm the OP of this thread.

I was re-reading the first page and oh boy. Was it funny.

1) I was very angry. I still believe a lot of things I said back them, but Jesus, poor me.

2) It's kind of funny (in a sad way) to read all the "nah, you're exaggerating, Venezuela isn't that bad" comments I got.

There's nothing like minimizing pain to suit your own agenda, it seems.

Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4298: Sep 2nd 2021 at 7:52:48 PM

Seeing the OP come back after so much is intersting:

-If you are still wondering, plenty of the thing you said I have it too: while I dont have a palvonian hate for socialism and comunism, I tend to be waaaay more critical about it, specially what I feel are issue coming from comunism and left rethoric that cant just be blamed for misinterpretation, specially because some issues like left love for sticking for one each other are becoming annoying.

-Yes, I do often have this....let call "hate for your country", or rather sociaty(introduce "we live in a sociaty, botton text"), specially since we allow chavez to get what it got, it kinda really back them.

-Like I said, it was vastly diferent, Chavez was seen as sort of bad ruler but not super bad and for many didnt cross the moral evident horizon, granted I will said a lot of people was very luke warm to chavez and is movement until very reciently because maduro cross over all the line that make people call a dictator but I feel that people give chavez a VERY wide room to operate until it was too late.

Reading all post can be fun i the right context.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#4299: Sep 3rd 2021 at 1:14:13 AM

Basically, Chavez had a sort of legitimacy that Maduro lacks?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#4300: Sep 3rd 2021 at 1:18:04 AM

Chavez was better at making everything seem okay in Venezuela (at least to the rest of the world) and was propped up by how well Venezuela's oil was selling during his time.

But even then, cracks were starting to show near the end of his time.

And outside of Venezuela, there were people who really wanted to believe that Chavism was working. It would have validated their hopes that socialism was viable.

Edited by M84 on Sep 3rd 2021 at 4:19:37 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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