Drafting a clearer definition of "Fan-Speak."

The thing that bugs me the most is that these aren't tropes at all. They're just opinions.

Quick question: what do we do about YKTTW YMMV's like this one? It doesn't seem to serve any storytelling purpose other then gushing about characters you like. It's just an opinion.

edited 25th Jan '11 11:32:24 PM by SpellBlade

Holy crap. Sooner or later we will be completely buried in this sort of stuff.

Then why not just go with that? Opinions and Tropes? May take a lot of work, but that's what they are, aren't they?

Also: Many would argue that a character hated by the fandom would be a fact. If the reader or writer does hate him, that's just another thing entirely.

edited 25th Jan '11 11:39:10 PM by juancarlos11

A Fanspeak space? A long the lines of Suger Wiki and Darth Wiki?

Great, now we gotta start policing YKTTW.

This is what happens when we fail to set the precedent we want.

If you give fans an inch, they will take a mile (or whatever the saying is). There is a reason we have pages like License To Whine and {{Why Fandom Can'tHaveNiceThings}}. Anything that can be used as an excuse for gushing, will be. Anything that can be used as an excuse for complaining, will be. I understand that there is some value in the opinion pages, but as things stand they need to get off the main wiki. A "Fan Opinion" subwiki seems like the best suggestion so far.

Edit: What is wrong with the markup there?

edited 26th Jan '11 12:11:56 AM by nrjxll

Sorting out loud....

I guess we have YMMV things which are opinion items (I refuse to call them tropes) that we will tolerate examples for as long as they are off the real Main article. Tolerated mainly because the fun outweighs the hassle.

We have non-opinion items that are just factoids, not storytelling. These are Trivia. We keep them (separately) because they are sometimes interesting and because you can't have education systems designed to make people barf up facts without building a populace that reflexively barfs up facts at the drop of any hat.

Then we have terms that benefit in no way from examples. In fact, examples are just natter-y edit-war bait. The hassle outweighs the fun. These are the ones that are 'fan-speak', in my mind. Maybe it just needs a better name, one that captures the intent: No examples. Period. It's just natter-bait. Not even flame-bait. It just attracts endlessly tedious back-n-forth opinion swapmeets.

Conversation starter comes to mind. Or possibly debatable descriptions.

If we're going to look down on them, why not just go for Natter-bait? Simple and it drives the idea of why these tropes don't have examples.

They are not tropes. They are terms for opinions.

Sorry, my mistake. So, which ones are we talking about exactly? Are we taking down, say...Unpleasable Fanbase examples or something?

Back to that. We have two things. Tropes and Opinions. There are different kinds of opinions, just like there are different kinds of tropes. If we can separate the opinions from the tropes, the wiki's mission will live on.

Limiting the edit warring over opinions would be a bonus.

We already took down Unpleasable Fanbase examples, but yeah,it's an example of the sort of thing that is an opinion.

My impression was that is exactly the kind of thing we keep Darth Wiki around for.

That's specifically for negative opinions, but again, yeah, most stuff in Darth Wiki are opinions that have been banned from Main, as well. Ditto Sugar Wiki, but positive opinions.

edited 26th Jan '11 12:31:39 AM by FastEddie

Hm, I saw a legitimate example of an in work Unpleasable Fanbase and I left it on the page, should I have removed it?

Sort all the Fan Speak Tropes and shove them into their Positive and negative reaction wiki's?

I mean I see a purpose for them but I do agree they should be separate from real tropes.

EDIT: Are there any Neutral ones?

edited 26th Jan '11 12:37:21 AM by Raso

So we already have the means. Moving something to Darth Wiki kills the wicks though, so that will be a problem when we want to clean examples.

So much to discuss and I gotta go to bed...

Redirects though wont kill the wicks (I dont think) and there are still Wicks on Darthwiki tropes everywhere on the forums. (I think So Bad Its Horrible has like 2k and something else had close to 10k.)

edited 26th Jan '11 12:42:02 AM by Raso

Answering your previous question, the only fanspeak term from the ones we have now, which looks neutral to me is Het, though I don't know why anyone would feel the need to add examples to that.

Cleaning wicks shouldn't be as much a problem if we have licence to burn everything and set up a thread here in Special Efforts asking for volunteers.

edited 26th Jan '11 12:46:43 AM by Killomatic

Cleaning wicks isnt such a good idea IMO I mean some of these pop up quite a lot of places and most really make sense.

Just got to say though The Wesley has 15,449 to this wiki (The only one I have ever actually looked up that had more is Tsundere with 29,752) , Shilling the Wesley 2,494.... That is a fuck ton of people brought here via these pages.

Another option would be keep the fan speak pages where they are. But all examples will be under their respective Wiki label and color scheme and specifically label them as such.

edited 26th Jan '11 1:05:24 AM by Raso

To be honest, I don't see much of an issue...

Wait, hear me out. We've already done the subjective migration thing. We have subjectives and audience reactions (btw Eddie, if we're refusing to call them tropes, why are they listed as Audience Reaction Tropes?). We have YMMV pages. We already have everything we need to separate the facts from the natter-bait.

It seems to me that "Fan Speak" is basically a trope that's in wide use with the same title that we're using. It doesn't seem to have anything with this issue at all. True, tropes like these attract more attention (and therefore more sturgeon-ish contributions)- subjectives included- but that shouldn't be grounds for doing anything to them we don't do to run-of-the-mill subjectives.

What I'm trying to get at here is that we've already made significant progress on this issue without having to throw away any examples (except for the really bad ones like So Bad Its Horrible). We have the subjectives and audience reactions where we want them- almost off the main wiki, but there for fans to go look for and for curators to take care of if they so choose. If what's bothering us is that the subjective and audience reaction pages themselves are still physically on the main wiki, maybe we can move them to the YMMV namespace and hold them to the same standards as everything else on there.

edited 26th Jan '11 2:16:18 AM by TripleElation

They are not tropes. They are opinions. Getting rid of the examples is the ideal, not something to be avoided. I'll fix that Audience Reaction Tropes problem right now.

Edit to add: That's done. See Audience Reactions.

edited 26th Jan '11 4:29:24 AM by FastEddie