This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
ParadiscaCorbasi I don't want to start an Edit War, but the Fridge Horror bit about Neverland being powered by the soul of a foresaken firefly seems a bit out of place because:
- Ray got a beautiful funeral
- Ray is remembered in the name of Tiana's house band: The Firefly Five plus Lou
- Ray is happy as a star in the sky beside Evangeline.
Also, the point of this page is discussion. So it's kind of bad form to remove the explanation on this page for someone doing something on the main page. The edit page does say don't be rude, and removing it here prevents anyone from discussing the change.
B gal: I understand. But if you felt that, why didn't you just delete the line yourself instead of starting the discussion page?
ParadiscaCorbasi I did delete the line, but out of courtesy I explained why I did it, which would've been natter on the main page, so I started the discussion page. And someone put it back; then you deleted my discussion starter here. I did not delete the line on the main page a second time because, as previously stated, I didn't want to start an Edit War.
B gal: Oh. Thanks for explaining.
Seven Of Diamonds: Okay, so the first part of Female Success is Family success makes sense, but Tiana did buy the restaurant with her own money (The Fenner's accepted her original offer after they saw Louis), and she only didn't get it in the first place because of discrimination.
ParadiscaCorbasi I thought that Naveen's money was involved at that point too, but I think you're right. So I can edit the Female Success is Family part to just indicate her father. Thanks for pointing it out.
Seven Of Diamonds: The novelization says that's how it happened, that's why they were sure to show the coffee tins full of change.
ParadiscaCorbasi I see. It was removed, but I've put it back with as neutral a write up as I can come up with.
Harpie Siren: I really really don't get that, it's sexist that Tiana learned something from a parent? How? It wouldn't be sexist if Naveen was the one who learned something from a parent.
ParadiscaCorbasi: My understanding is that particular trope indicates a woman's success comes with the help of a man in her background. It looked to me like Disney was attempting to use it to show a close bond between father and daughter. And they did show that Tiana's mother was a seamstress, and Tiana's interest was more in cooking. I guess the sexist angle comes from the idea that men are self-sufficient, and that only a Mama's Boy would be successful based on what he learned from his mother, but a woman can't really be successful unless a man shows her the way/helps her along?
Harpie Siren: You know, if you ask me. That just looks like people are trying to find something to complain about. Tiana was' self-sufficient. And people find inspiration in their parents all the time.
Lale: Heroes and heroines alike follow in their parents' footsteps and learn skills from their parents all. The Time. The interpretation that "Tiana's father passing his skills onto his daughter implies women can only be successful is they have a man helping them" is ridiculous. If anything, it implies that girls can follow in their father's footsteps without feeling like their gender should inhibit them. Come on! If Tiana learned something from her mother, people would say she was confining herself to the female sphere and should have learned something from her father! I suppose if he taught her swordsmanship, people would be okay with it? In fact, he didn't really help her achieve ehr dream at all. He instilled a passion for cooking in her and gave her her first cooking lessons, perhaps, but he died before he could help her do anything towards the restaurant goal. So his only contribution to her success was inspiration... which heroes (and heroines) get from parents and mentors all the time.
ParadiscaCorbasi: I don't disagree. I liked the movie, and like I said, I thought Disney was trying to portray a warm father-daughter bond. Just saying that could still be interpreted as fitting the trope.
Harpie Siren: But it's still not the trope. I think that mentioning it in the Real Women Never Wear Dresses part. Because people "interpreting" it like that just smacks of that. Or Unpleasable Fanbase. Because anyone who really thinks it fits under that trope is just looking for a reason to complain.
Seven Of Diamonds: It was never even confirmed in the movie that Naveen got his money back at all. It was just assumed because his parents came to his wedding, and if he did it was entirely due to Tiana. Plus he had promised her money for helping him, which she certainly did. If anything he was only successful because of her. Imagine if their genders were reversed and this was about Naveena the Manic Pixie Dream Girl and Tino the hardworking entrepreneur, then it would fit this trope.
Lale: Agreed, to the last sentence above. This discussion started when the Female Success is Family example said something like "Disney tried, they really did, but Tiana learned all her cooking skills from her father." That was the objection.
Mr. Jack: Does Dr. Facilier really qualify as a Magnificent Bastard? He had a magnificent plan, sure, but he failed to carry it out. I'd say he's more of a Smug Snake for that than anything.
Lale: Agreed. I think that's confusing Magnificent Bastard with Evil Is Cool.
B gal: Um, should I add Anachronism Stew to the trope pages? Because I'm not sure if people knew what stars really were.
Harpie Siren: As far as I can tell, they might have known it in the 1920's. But if they didn't that doesn't make it an Anachronism Stew. That's just Did Not Do The Research or they were taking an Artistic License.
Lale: I believe scientists were just discovering that in the 1910s-20s, but I still doubt it would be common knowledge.
Seven Of Diamonds: Technically speaking, the Evening Star isn't even a star it's the planet Venus when it appears in the West.
Lale: And Venus was the Goddess of Love and Beauty — how appropriate.
Lale: Since this is a particularly political movie (it shouldn't be, but it is), could we divide the trope list into one for tropes about the movie (plot devices, characters, songs — the fun stuff) and one for the politics (Girls Need Role Models, Real Women Never Wear Dresses — the stuff that makes us bang our heads against the wall)?
Harpie Siren: I second this motion.
Paradisca Corbasi: I think that's a really good idea.
Keeyla: Fourth it. It's make it so much easier to read about the tropes that are in the movie itself, not the opinionated stuff. And please tell me an edit like this would move Unpleasable Fanbase to the 'political section' as well...
Harpie Siren: It probably would.
Lale: Okay then.
Lale: I hate to rain on everyone's parade, but the truth is, Tiana is not an Action Girl. She's not a warrior. She's tough, spunky, and defeats the villain but not in physical combat. This is not a bad thing! Real women don't have to be warriors to be 'interesting and complex' characters. She's a Plucky Girl, definitely, just not an "Action Girl" by that trope's definition. We'd have to expand the trope definition to include "all proactive heroines who show pluck and spirit."
Seven Of Diamonds: Was Charlotte really a Dumb Blonde? She was very eccentric and naive, but I don't recall anything that really made it seem like she couldn't add 2+2 or comprehend simple concepts.
Harpie Siren: I dunno, I think it's possible for a character to be a "dumb blond" without actually lacking a brain.
Seven Of Diamonds: So you're saying someone can be a Dumb Blonde without being dumb? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Nat The Writer: The movie doesn't really portray her as dumb—just very much of a Cloudcuckoolander. (Or maybe she's more of a Manic Pixie Dream Girl?)
Paradisca Corbasi: I actually had her as Cloud Cuckoo Lander and someone deleted it. From a certain standpoint it is dumb, in the 20th century, to still believe in fairy tales and expect to be whisked away to a castle by a prince. It's not my standpoint, but.
And on another topic: Ray the firefly was not simple-minded. He was third smartest goodguy character behind Tiana and Naveen, IMO.
Seven Of Diamonds: I think she's more of a Cloud Cuckoo Lander than dumb, especially considering she's in a Disney movie so her views aren't that far from the reality of her universe. The same could be said for Ray's love of Evangeline. And it makes no sense to cite the "thinks the star is a firefly" as evidence for him being a "dumb Cajun stereotype" because that has nothing to do with him being Cajun, it's about him being a lightning bug, and would have worked if he had any other accent. Also, the main stereotype of Cajuns is that they are illiterate, while Ray was shown to read in the first teaser and write in perfect cursive in the movie.
Paradisca Corbasi: *highfives Seven Of Diamonds* YES! I used the fact that despite the wonky teeth, Ray was literate and one of the cleverest characters in the cast. It is nice to see other people saw the same justifications I saw used to the purpose I thought they were.
Seven Of Diamonds: Is there a trope for the way Naveen is completely oblivious to the shadiness of Facilier up to the "Whoa, snakes?" part. Actually even then he's just kind of surprised up 'til the actual "Ow my finger!" part. Because even when the singing voodoo masks are floating around behind him the expression on his face is just like "Cool!".
Paradisca Corbasi: It doesn't look like there is one that is a good fit. I did a search for 'naive' and got back:
- Naïve Newcomer - he has no clue in a lot of ways.
- Pollyanna - he's always cheerful even in dire situations.
- Good Is Dumb - he's not a bad guy, just unfocused and self-centered.
- The Ingenue - kinda sorta but not so much.
Paradisca Corbasi: Re Sarcasm Mode in the political section — to avoid Nattering on the main page:
I think the point such people are attempting to make complaining about "why aren't the black characters perfect" is that viewers who are People of Color have had to watch many, many, many, many, many movies where Mighty Whitey is the star, or the white hero is a perfect Gleaming Smile sort who has no flaws of any kind.
So from their point of view, why wouldn't Disney make the Person of Color heroine that way to make things really equal? The problem there is that people leveling these kind of complaints haven't taken into consideration that characters lacking flaws are usually really boring, and the better movies have characters with flaws no matter what color they are. Name any Disney movie and I can point you to a character flaw. It's just that people tend to think in the scope of their own experiences, so they don't consider the nuances. And honestly, any fanfic with the hero/heroine being perfect would draw some heat from readers who do have enough perspective to know that everybody has flaws no matter what color they are.
ParadiscaCorbasi: The Why Don't Ya Just Shoot Him? sounds more like Cut Lex Luthor a Check to me.
werd: The list of examples under Shout Outs are too out-of-hand. They comprise of both intentional shoutouts the directors really wanted to pay homage to, but also made-up ones noticed by over-excited fans! People are simply getting so excited by hand-drawn animation coming back that they are seeing shoutouts where there are none! We should root out only the ones that were obviously intentional by the directors, and leave out those others we are unsure about.
Seven Of Diamonds: Yeah, there's no way they were referencing "The Nutty Professor", and Tarzan seems pretty unlikely as well. The references are more likely to be iconic Disney stuff that people actually care about, or iconic non-Disney stuff like Streetcar and the Stooges. I doubt Charlotte is a reference to Shia Labouf considering she had that name before he was really famous, and Disney animation doesn't really have anything to do with the work Shia did. The voodoo masks have nothing to do with tikis....And for goodness sakes, Louis has nothing to do with the Big Lipped Alligator. New Orleans is famous for alligators and jazz! The original BLAM was a drag queen, not a trumpeter. Compare them side by side they don't even look alike, and Louis does not have big lips! The animators have no nostalgia for All Dogs Go to Heaven because a) they did not work on it, b) they didn't see it when they were kids and c) the character of Louis was well established before Nostalgia Chick even existed, let alone made the BLAM into a meme. There is no reason for Disney to be referencing a thirty year old Don Bluth movie that's obscure to everyone except children of the late 80's-90's! Take it to WMG!
Lale: Natter form the main page:
- And recently, there have been complaints that "the black characters aren't perfect." And we mean perfect as in "no flaws whatsoever." Wait, what?
- Oh noes, acting like normal people is offensive to Black people, so we must have them act like Mary Sues in order for them to be portrayed in positive discrimination! That's a genius and proper way to write Blacks. Why don't the people that think that just write an AU fanfiction where the black characters are ZOMG TEH PERFCTZ PPLZ EVA!!!11 and see how much heat they get from doing so?
- When it comes to Tiana's appearance we have the obligatory "She's not black enough!" even though they would never say that about Anika Noni Rose and the woman who did her reference modelling, whom she owes her looks and mannerisms. Then there's people criticizing her for having a "wide nose" and wondering why Disney didn't base her on the very light Alicia Keys. Meanwhile there's the people complaining that she doesn't have natural hair, even though the lines of her hair suggest a simplified easy-to-draw afro-puff, though a woman in the twenties probably wouldn't have been rocking a full 70's afro anyway. Then there's the ones complaining that she doesn't have "long, regal, loose curls" like Beyonce or Halle Berry!
- In a nutshell, the majority of posters on IMDB are unpleasable idiots.
- And recently, there have been complaints that "the black characters aren't perfect." And we mean perfect as in "no flaws whatsoever." Wait, what?
Puff Puff: I didn't want to ask this on the main page to keep out natter, but does anyone have any links to these reviews that called Charlotte fat? I want to add her to the Hollywood Pudgy page, but not without some backup.
Seven Of Diamonds: I'm guessing they were referring to this messageboard post:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780521/board/flat/153541462?d=153558598#153558598
—- Okay, here's the problem with this
- Female Success is Family: While Tiana did buy the restaurant with mostly her own money, it was her husband's money that helped fix it up. To balance this, every single one of Naveen's successes is due to Tiana, and she is the one who spoiler:defeats the villain and frees her prince, which entitles her to the Standard Hero Reward
- Though it's debatable as to where the fix-up money comes from. It's either Naveen, who is clearly reconciled with his family in the marriage montage, or Charlotte, who knew Tiana's plight and was very sympathetic to her.
- Or Naveen went ahead with his plan to get two or three jobs and helped Tiana earn the fix-up money quicker.
- Though it's debatable as to where the fix-up money comes from. It's either Naveen, who is clearly reconciled with his family in the marriage montage, or Charlotte, who knew Tiana's plight and was very sympathetic to her.
Naveen only got money from his parents entirely due to Tiana, he was indebted to her. If they really used his inheritance to fix up the building, it was as much Tiana's money as it was his. Also because they were married. And any money they spent on fixing it up was still offset by the fact that they did all the labor themselves.
It's also not fair to blame Tiana for not getting her restaurant the first time. It was heavily implied to be because of racism, and that's why Louis had to help her out at the end. That wasn't "little woman needs her male friends because she can't do it on her own" and calling it that is sexist and completely discrediting everything Tiana did.
Paradisca Corbasi: Yes, Stella the dog is the Big-Lipped Alligator Moment. The frog hunters didn't come out of nowhere. Naveen and Tiana were in the swamp, and guys hunting frogs (or other things) to eat is likely to happen in the swamp. The trio might well have been happy eating possum or whatever else they ran across, but frogs came first. Plotwise, there had to be some event happening that caused Naveen and Tiana to warm up to each other a little bit from their initial enmity. So running into a danger in the swamp for frogs that they could beat working together would have to be it. It strikes me as a justified example.
DarkStorm: I was watching this a second time, and it occurs to me that they're almost a Five-Man Band. Tiana is the The Lancer, Ray is The Smart Guy, Louis is The Big Guy, and Naveen, amusingly enough, is The Chick. Closer to the end of the movie everyone starts picking up traits of The Hero (Tiana more than the rest), but until then, it's a leaderless Five-Man Band, with all the chaos that implies.
