This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Logical Dash: No examples? Not even links to analyses using the test? Even a link to a comment thread would do.
DomaDoma: Okay, "love interest" over "man" is a huge improvement in actually gauging feminism. Even if it's clearly not what Bechdel meant.
Lale: The only conversation between women I remember in The Incredibles is between Edna and Elastigirl... discussing her husband. I don't think that fits.
Machiavellienne: Edna and Elastigirl also discuss the costumes, the family members' various powers and Jack Jack. I don't know if it counts if there is a male character present, but Helen also has conversations with Violet, most notably the scene where she gives the children the masks. And to really stretch it, she has a conversation with the babysitter.
Gwen Stacy Wannabe: Would Firefly count? Inara and Kaylee are very close, Kaylee and River play games together, and even Saffron and Inara had some interaction.
Daibhid C: It seems so obvious to me that Kim Possible should be listed, that I can't help wondering if the fact it isn't means I'm missing something...
Lale: This article might help
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Aside from the fact that it's really a Magical Girlfriend show like Haruhi Suzumiya, only the writers screwed up the title, about that conversation about something other than a love interest...
- Kim: I'm stuck dating the football captain or Middleton'll lose the game, plus there's a worldwide satellite crisis!Mrs. Dr. Possible: Kim, you have to be honest with Brick. If the football team loses, it's not your fault. Beat I can't help you with the satellite thing.
Conspicuous. Meanwhile, all Kim and Yori talk about is Ron, all Kim and Bonnie talk about are boys, fashion, cheerleading, and insulting each other, and all Kim and Monique talk about are boys and fashion. The one time Kim tries to involve Monique in the action part of the plot, it fails abysmally. While her male You Suck sidekick is off saving the day and discovering his destiny, the so-called protagonist is swooning over the hot new guy. The only grounds for real feminism in this show is the lesbian subtext (...Or So I Heard), but that was unintentional, and of course went nowhere officially. Bottom line is, the show alternates between treating girls like perfect goddesses who can do anything or like hopeless fangirls but never regular characters.
Lale: Judging by the trailers I've seen, it does look like The princess and the Frog counts, but I thought Tiana wanted to be an actress, hence all the princess costumes and stuff. Is her mom the one who wants to open her own restaurant?
Seven Of Diamonds: Nope, her mom's "the best seamstress in N'awlins." Tiana's the one with the restaurant dream, although she got the idea from her late father. Does it fail the test if they mention him during that scene? The blue princess dress is for a masquerade party, though it's actually a second costume that she borrowed after her less fancy one was ruined.
Lale: Oh. Man, how many times has this story changed? Well, it counts. The idea is that women have something on their mind besides love or being with a male partner, not necessarily never thinking about any men, including late fathers.
Lale: This sounds like an aversion. Plus, maybe I only happen to remember those "few seasons," but I recall female love interests and "girlier" pink rangers. Hasn't it usually been 2 female rangers, which would be The Smurfette Principle?
- Power Rangers scores shockingly high for a series aimed at prepubescent boys. Then again, aside from a few seasons it's an aggressively No Hugging, No Kissing franchise.
- Indeed, one of the biggest complaints leveled at RPM's Summer is that she has no personality other than "love interest." Even her two-part focus episode was centered around getting out of her arranged marriage so she could end up with Dillon.
Lale: Just a thought, but is anyone besides me fascinated at how often female writers (JK Rowling, Louisa May Alcott...) are accused of being misogynist? Considering the accusers are basically stating, "Women don't know how to write about their/our own sex," it strikes me as Hypocritical Humor.
Drake Dark Hunter: Am I the only one who feels that a lot of this so called lack of independent female characters is more or less BS? The nature of media these days is really you'll find whatever your looking for. If you want, maybe I just get irritated by neo-feminism that is often far is makes claims that they can't really support. Eh, whatever...
NOT!: It would be nice if you were the only one, but you probably aren't. It's a pretty well supported fact that male film roles outnumber female roles by about two to one, across the board. Here's an article about a study to that effect. Here's another article about the same study, with a bit more or a critical look at the types of roles women get (primarily romance-oriented). The disparity is just as bad or worse when it comes to background characters who aren't important to the plot and therefore don't have any "reason" to be female. Bechdel's rule is really just an easy to understand extension of these factors.
Count Choculitis: In case anyone's still skeptical, here's another study that confirms the two to one number: in fact, in the 100 top grossing films of 2007, women had less than 30% of the speaking roles. The numbers are even grimmer behind the camera.
Lale: Since someone requested examples from Harry Potter on the main page, and we (appropriately) frown on Conversation Inthe Main Page:
- Hermione has multiple conversations with Professor Vector, McGonagall, Ginny, Luna, and other female students in the D.A. about magic and lessons. In fact, none of Hermione's conversations with other girls (that we see) are about boys.
- Bellatrix and Narcissa in Half-Blood Prince
- Petunia and Lily in Deathly Hallows
- The 3 female members of the Gryffindor Quidditch team interact all the time; boys are never the subject.
- Tonks and Molly Weasley are both members of the Order of the Phoenix, who I doubt talk about men during the many meetings we see them attend together.
- Discussions between various female professors (McGonagall and Pomfrey, McGonagall and Sprout...) about lessons, students, or whatever threat is looming at the time.
- If we can include The Tales Of Beedle The Bard, "The Fountain of Fair Fortune."
In short, having a male protagonist is not sexist; works starring a male can still treat female characters like human beings who have other things on their mind besides romance. Harry Potter clearly does that, having just as many female characters as male and in all the same roles (student, athlete, professor, politician, warrior, villain, mentor, etc.) as male characters. Seriously... why would a woman write something misogynist anyway? Well, the women and girls of Harry Potter are regular characters who just happen to female, end of story.
A Carlssin: I found a great quote, but I couldn't find a way to incorporate it into the page. Maybe someone else could take a stab at it? It's from http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp15.Building.the.Bomb.html
, talking about the crapload of executive meddling that killed the movie "The Puppet Masters":
- "She doesn't have to be connected to the plot," a female executive on the project told us, "in this type of film, the woman is just the hero's girlfriend."
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: That sounds more like The Smurfette Principle — though, admittedly, the two are related. How about a key quote from the conversation that created the Test?
