This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Looney Toons: Just a note for whoever wrote the Drawn Together example. "Reeking" means to give off a horrific odor.
That Other 1 Dude: Removed:
- The Fire Nation of Avatar The Last Airbender committed genocide so successful that no one saw an airbender for one hundred years, oand the one who survived was the Avatar. This is surprisingly downplayed in the TV show, despite an act that, in reality, would be portrayed as quite possibly worse than the Holocaust.
That's still generally seen as irredemably horrible, just not heavily dwelled on. The Fire Nation itself apparently covered it up. You also spelted Holocaust wrong, but that's besides the point.
The Fullmetal Alchemist example says that the implication of sympathetic characters in horrible mass murder makes more since this is a fantasy-counterpart to "Imperial Germany". I know absolutely nothing about FMA, but I know lots about Imperial Germany and I don't feel that that's historically justifiably. Sure, Imperial Germany nearly wiped out the Herero in an act of undeniable genocide, the existence of the Zulus and the Indians has never made anyone suggest that British or American counterparts can be expected to be the Bad Guys. Ditto for every European country except Norway and a great many nations elsewhere.
Giles has never really been the Wise Old Mentor. He's long been an nasty sonofabitch, which perfectly matches up with the darkness of the Slayer. - (Lots42)
Caswin: This trope seems to be getting derailed; many people seem to be confusing it (reasonably) with Gory Discretion Shot. At any rate, they don't belong here. (That Doomsday example's been bugging me a long time - and now, having seen the movie and coming back to this page, I think it might be part of the problem.)
- In Superman: Doomsday, after Supes kills his clone. As the crowd of cheering people form, the camera pans up slightly for the rest of the scene just enough to seem as though he has disappeared. This produces a jarring scenario in which it seems that a cute, smiling boy is standing right next to the dead body.
- This happens in the Danny Phantom Made-for-TV Movie "The Ultimate Enemy". Vlad tells Danny how his ghost self fused with Vlad's and became evil, but decides not to tell what happened to his human part. The audience got to see it, however, when the his human part gets blown up by the new hybrid.
- Er, no. The New and Improved VlaDanny gives human Danny an evil smile and Glowing Eyes of Doom, camera pans away at the last second, and a scream is heard. No blowing up is shown.
- In Buffy The Vampire Slayer, during one interrogation, the camera pans away from Giles and the captive. There's a yelp, and a "No, please, I'll tell you Everything!" Considering the character is from a race that appears to be unconditionally loyal, it's more than likely that whatever Giles did would make his standing as Wise Old Mentor shaky.
- Ironically, the speculation about what the hell he did has the same effect.
Kerrah: I cut the enormous Warcraft example bulk and added a shorter version. The orcs aren't really an example, because we have three books and two games about their evilitude.
- In the Warcraft universe the Burning Legion has destroyed hundreds, if not thousands, of worlds in their plans to scourge life from the galaxy. To a lesser extent, the Orcs attempted genocide on an entire race (the Draenei) and tried it again on a second planet. The former is dealt with in a very vague manner (never really drawing on specifics), while the latter is often downplayed because of Proud Warrior Race Guy tendencies. It's rather jarring when you consider lesser things - humans forcing some orcs into slavery after the war, insane zealots fighting against a race of undead that want to purge all life from Azeroth - are treated in far greater detail and are expected to be viewed as WORSE courses of action in some cases.
- To be fair, the Burning Legion have never been portrayed as anything other than completely unsympathetic villains and the orcs' actions are played down not because they are proud warrior race guys but because they were not in control of their own actions at the time.
- Actually, in the tie in novel Rise of the Horde, Thrall, leader of the orcs, admits that that's just an excuse and that they really should accept responsibility. This was an important plot point in Warcraft III, when Thrall spends the first half of the orc campaign believing that the orcs were manipulated and enslaved by cosmic evil... all until Grom Hellscream, a mentor and father figure turned to evil, admits that the orcs were fully aware of what they were doing. By that game's expansion, though, no consequences of this are shown, so that when a human admiral who was on the receiving end of orcish genocide in the past shows up and calls them on it, the orcs are treated as nothing but innocent victims of prejudice. They then proceed to demonstrate that they have changed and aren't brutal killers any more by brutally killing said admiral. This troper couldn't help but be sympathetic to Daelin Proudmoore.
- This Troper isn't. Admiral Proudmoore has every reason in the world to not trust or like orcs, but starting genocidal war against them after they not only made but kept a peace treaty and full military alliance with Jaina Proudmoore, and refusing to believe his own daughter when she relates to him the part where the orcs fought alongside the humans to save the world from Archimonde, puts him firmly into "two wrongs don't make a right" territory.
- Of course. The writer of the previous entry feels compelled to add that the sympathy he speaks of is essentially that you would give to a Tragic Hero. Proudmoore's hatred is entirely reasonable considering what the orcs did to him, and his argument that orcs are barbarians who only understand violence is to an extent borne out by Thrall's violent response. That this is somewhat hypocritical is what gives him his tragic status. One can also compare the Horde's treatmeant of someone who tried to destroy their race (Rexxar killed Daelin) to the Alliance's treatment of another genocidal war leader (Turalyon avoided killing Orgrim Doomhammer in favour of putting him on trial). Proudmoore is He Who Fights Monsters; what makes it poignant is that the orcs genuinely were monsters, he has a right to demand recompense, and the orc response is just as barbaric as he said it would be. The orcs did improve, yes, and despite what Proudmoore thinks are not Always Chaotic Evil, but his arguments nonetheless hit close to home. If not for the orc race's Villainy Discretion Shot, I suspect more people would be sympathetic to him.
- Um, exactly how was the orcs' response "barbaric"? Proudmoore attacked first, and his strategic goal was genocide. You can't exactly blame the orcs for not reaching a peaceful settlement when their enemy is manifestly unwilling to accept any terms of peace at all, and won't stop until he's slaughtered every orc, female orc, and orc child on the planet. And you might recall that Thrall did have someone plead for peace first: Daelin's own daughter, Jaina Proudmoore. If he wasn't willing to listen to her, and in addition tried to have Rexxar's peace delegation executed, at this point diplomacy has failed and there's nothing left but to fight it out. As for Rexxar vs. Turalyon... Orgrim Doomhammer was willing to be taken alive, and Daelin Proudmoore wasn't.
- There's also that Daelin Proudmoore's rationale for killing the orcs was based on 'bloodline guilt', a not-very-moral-at-all concept. The orcs that accepted the Burning Legion's fel power and attacked Lordaeron are dead, Admiral. Thrall wasn't even alive during the war. (Yes, Thrall made statements assuming guilt in a tie-in novel. Thrall feels guilty over shit he shouldn't.) Even Grom Hellscream's gone now, and the Warsong are in an entirely new generation. The rest were chased back to Draenei or died in the war. With the exception of the Warsong clan every single orc in the current Horde is descended from orcs taken prisoner by the Alliance and held in slave camps. At this point, no side has any moral claim on the other for recompense. This Troper saves his sympathy for everyone, both human and orc, who got killed in the pointless and needless war that Daelin Proudmoore started. But for Proudmoore himself? The part where he fought monsters so long that he became a monster is classic tragedy, but that doesn't mean it deserves any sympathy.
- Now, hold on a second. Orc veterans of the demonic corruption are still around. Eitrigg
is one prominent example, and he's one of Thrall's most trusted advisors. Grom Hellscream was not the only one. Many of the corrupted orcs still survive. There are even orcs old enough to remember the days before the corruption even started, e.g. Drek'Thar. Rarely is it suggested that maybe, just maybe, these orcs ought to feel guilty for the First and Second Wars. Daelin went too far, certainly, but did we ever hear one orc try to apologise for what they did to the human kingdoms? Daelin probably wouldn't have listened, but no orc ever takes responsibility for being the monsters that turned him into what he was. As to Turalyon and Doomhammer, reread Tides of Darkness: Doomhammer didn't surrender. Turalyon knocked him unconscious. Doomhammer never had a choice; he was knocked out and dragged back to Lordaeron in chains. This troper is probably going on about it too much, but he wants to deliver a Shut Up, Hannibal! to the Horde on behalf of the entire Alliance.
Fighteer: Back to this, I don't see how the Burning Legion's evil is an informed attribute within the story. They are portrayed as horrific and not as bumbling or sympathetic in the least. The only reason they didn't obliterate Azeroth like every other world is because it's a huge nexus of magical energy and guarded by the creations of the Titans themselves. Not to mention that it wouldn't make for a very good game.
Caswin: Is it just me, or is at least one of the editors in the DMFA entry confusing this with Offstage Villainy? (Not that Offstage Villainy applies in this case.)
Caswin: Looks that way. Characters with a long history of atrocities swept under the rug in the background but come off as likable and even sympathetic "on-camera" are exactly what this page is talking about.
- Demons in particular get hit pretty hard. We hear all the time about how they're completely evil and irredeemable, but with a few exceptions, every time they actually show up in the comic, rather than just being referenced, they instead come across as dangerous and eccentric, but basically nice. It gets to the point that this troper finds herself seriously wondering if the hatred against demons is honestly deserved.
- Regina is definitely ''not'' "basically nice". Nor the many times deceased Dark Pegasus. And Aaryanna seriously sugggested kidnapping a random girl and subjecting her to torture and murder just so Dan could practice a new power (this sort of attitude is why Dan has issues with being a 'Cubi). As for Kria, well, even Hitler had his Pet the Dog moments. The Demon races are Darwinists generally. As Abel points out, there are exceptions, but they don't get any press.
- Dark Pegasus was definitely one of the "few exceptions" I was referring to. Other than that... well, let's just say that we have very different boundaries on where it stops being "Comedic Sociopathy in an otherwise likable character" and starts being "a genuinely nasty person" and leave it at that. I probably wouldn't want to be around the strip's demons in real life, but as fictional characters, I find most of them likable, and not in an Evil Is Cool sense.
- Regina is definitely ''not''
- Demons in particular get hit pretty hard. We hear all the time about how they're completely evil and irredeemable, but with a few exceptions, every time they actually show up in the comic, rather than just being referenced, they instead come across as dangerous and eccentric, but basically nice. It gets to the point that this troper finds herself seriously wondering if the hatred against demons is honestly deserved.
Bogus: Pulled the Grosse Pointe Blank example because the scenes are played for laughs, plus they're not really any worse than the stuff Marty does onscreen. Possibly Offstage Villainy, but it just isn't serious enough to qualify as a Discretion Shot.
- Definitely in play in Grosse Pointe Blank in order to keep the protagonist as a Hitman with a Heart. Whereas he only kills a few people in the film, some his alluded to actions during the Cold War, namely being a colonel in some army in Burma and killing the President of Paraguay with a fork, would definitely decrease his sympathy quotient if shown on screen.
- Maybe not. After all, the Burmese military are pretty much full-time Acceptable Targets these days, and killing a guy with a fork? That's pretty much Rule of Cool in a nutshell.
- Definitely in play in Grosse Pointe Blank in order to keep the protagonist as a Hitman with a Heart. Whereas he only kills a few people in the film, some his alluded to actions during the Cold War, namely being a colonel in some army in Burma and killing the President of Paraguay with a fork, would definitely decrease his sympathy quotient if shown on screen.
I removed "* Light in Death Note is frequently shown writing long lists of victims, and deaths are either not shown or you see someone clutching their heart in the shadows — but it's underemphasized that by the end of the series he and Misa have probably killed hundreds of people, likely more.
- By the end of the series? Heck, he's killed hundreds of people by the second episode. Considering the five-year Time Skip, the body count by the end of the series is probably in the hundreds of thousands, if not more."
magicalgnome: Removed this example
- Veronica Mars used this trope to justify the continual presence of Sheriff Donald Lamb in Veronica Mars' circle of acquaintances, via having Veronica remain silent on the issue of how he refused to belief her claims of being drugged and sexually assaulted in the pilot episode. When the issue was finally (but very briefly) brought back up in season three, Veronica response to Lamb's snide comment about her attempt to report being raped was to look at him with a "deer in the headlights" look as the subject quickly was changed.
Because Veronica always absolutely hated Lamb - precisely because of refusing to believe her claims of being raped and he was never really a character you were supposed to like.
