This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Viewers Are Geniuses launched as Viewers Are Geniuses Discussion: From YKTTW
Working Title: Viewers Are Geniuses: From YKTTW
Lord Helmchen: A big issue I have with this page: Why do people keep applying this trope to works where there are elements hard to understand, but the work is still clearly enjoyable without any special subject knowledge (i.e. it falls squarely into Genius Bonus, which is explicitly contrasted in the description). You don't actually have to have an understanding of Existentialism to find Objects in Space an enjoyable episode, you need not know sod-all about English or other poets to enjoy the plot or prose of Hyperion, Works like Wheel Of Time require at best a decent memory and attention span because of the Loads And Loads Of Characters and plotlines, and certainly no genius is required to enjoy the Flashman novels. Basically, stop using this trope (btw, I think "Experts" might work better than "Geniuses" for the title, since a brilliant quantum physicist might still know sod all about 13th century military tactics or Expressionist musicians) inflationarily, only apply it when you actually HAVE to have expert knowledge to comprehend/enjoy a certain work.
Caswin: Regarding the Lord Of The Rings example... er, where's that coming from? I've never heard it before. (Meanwhile, something in the back of my mind is wondering whether this is a Viewers Are Geniuses hoax within the page itself. Great, now it's got me all paranoid.)
William Wide Web: I think it's right but I'm not sure.
Filby: Tolkien wrote The Lord Of The Rings because his publisher insisted on a sequel to The Hobbit; most of his linguistic work went into The Silmarilion after his death. So I'm taking it out.
Phred:
- This page has a bad name. Genius does not equal knowledgeable.
- This same troper actually learnt a tremendous lot about psychoanalysis, Jungian archetypes, and Kabbalah just trying to figure out Evangelion. And still notices symbols and visual clues she hadn't noticed before even after watching it about a dozen times in eight years.
Conversation In The Main Page.
- Noein features quantum physics a lot. At two points you will be confused in the plot if you don't understand Schrodingers Cat.
- Then again, a lot of the quantum physics in this series was pure bogus, probably for the sake of the plot. It's good to watch for entertainment, but not science.
This kinda seems to go against the point of the page. >>;
- This troper found that Death Note insulting to his intelligence, feeling instead that all the characters described as geniuses acted like certified mental retards on horse tranquilizers, making this more of Viewers Are Morons.
Later:
- Both Digimon Adventure and Yu-Gi-Oh featured demonic monsters with monsters coming out of it's crotch. Many assumed this was a case of weirdness on the parts of the designers, but this is actually a reference to medieval portrayals of Satan who was actually often depicted with a monster for a penis.
This seems more like Older Than They Think.
Haven Took out this example, because it has literally nothing to do with this trope.
- *Robert Zemeckis joked that the hoverboards from Back To The Future 2 were real, and instantly, Mattel was bombarded with inquiries from thousands who wanted to get their hands on a working hoverboard!
- Yeah, that's because the author isn't as smart as he thinks he is. Dresden Codak uses a lot of very complicated philisophical ideas, and gets most of them wrong. Firmly in What Do You Mean, It's Not Symbolic? territory.
No "this sucks" examples, please. ``
Rogue 7: Am I going crazy here? I swear there was a long entry on Suzumiya Haruhi here, and if not there definitely should be. I just read Snow Mountain Syndrome. The puzzle involved an obscure mathematical reference for god's sake.
Grimace: Some of these examples are pushing the boundaries, I feel. Now, I'm a huge fan of Lost and Supernatural - both are great, enjoyable programs...but you don't exactly have to be a genius to follow them. The Wire, The Sopranos etc are more the kind of shows where you need at least to pay close attention. As mentioned by another troper, you don't actually need to know/understand all these philosophical references in Lost to follow the program, they just act as nice Easter Eggs, in a way. I'd count Lost and Supernatural as more having Hidden Depths: nice programs to sit back and veg out on, but if you pay attention there's some real gems to be found. Thoughts? Comments?
{{R&G}} Perhaps there should be a happy medium where we can put the shows that don't look down on the viewers and will reward them for paying attention. (If that makes sense.) Supernatural, for example, is a clever show that makes me want to kick myself sometimes but it's not like The Wire where you more than likely have to pay attention every second. I would probably put Buffy (before the Seasonal Rot), Futurama and Lost in the middle category as well.
Grimace: I'm going to feel like a prick doing it, but I've cut-pasted the Supernatural entry here for now. Again, for the record, I watch and enjoy Supernatural immensely, but you hardly need to be a "genius" to follow it. 2 guys, cool car, fighting monsters. The extra stuff is there, and done reasonably well, but as R&G above said is more of a little bonus for those who are paying attention.
- Supernatural has shown, time and time again, that it's not a typical CW show. While it was promoted as The Hardy Boys with hotties, cars and demons, it more often than not goes to fucked up, complicated, usually miserable places. Examples? Take the final confrontation between Dean and his Dream!Self in Dream A Little Dream Of Me. He's yelling about what his Dad put on him but it's only his irrational four year old self (who would really love his mommy back) coming out, not to mention he's beating and killing himself and that the demon (i.e his pitiful lack of self-worth) comes back scarier and bigger than ever. Does that look like a reaffirmation of his self-esteem to you? No? You would be right... but many people did think that he became completely fine at that point.
- How about "What Is And What Should Never Be"? Mind Screw, Everyone Is Jesus in Purgatory, the whole shebang. Trying to think your way through it at the end—is what Dean experienced what life would actually have been like if his mom hadn't died? Is it all an expression of his innermost desires and flaws? Is reality slipping in with all the references to drinking and sleeping or is that part of Dean's mental state?—hurts.
Blork: Removed a comment about how Futurama fans weren't able to solve the alien languages before the DVD movie. The codes were solved, it's just that only 25 symbols from the second were ever shown and so fans had to wait for the DVD to finally find out what the final symbol was.
Maggoty Anne Didn't several Monty Python skits turn this into a punchline? Speaking extremely untintelligible (but intelligent) language very fast to be funny?
Ouroboros: Cut the Wheel of Time one in literature. Complaining about prose or the over use of fictional words is not an example of this trope. Being able to wade through a bit of fictionary doesn't assume any kind of intelligence on the part of the reader.
Big T: While Lain definitely deserves to be on this page, it is not nearly as incomprehensible as people claim. Once you understand the premise, you really don't need to understand the rest to get the plot. (Of course, it takes almost to the end of the series to understand the theme, so you pretty much have to watch the whole thing all over again.)
Bchambers—- What is the Reason for the 25 hours of freedom? I've searched and can't find it...
shadowgirl_13_chaos- Hey, I just deleted a few pointless spoilers in the newspaper comic section because it was about genuine fact, not really spoiler-worthy. Is that O.K?
Solidark: Removed the Dollhouse example because it's unrelated to the trope, also, conversation in the main page
- Dollhouse is possibly one of the smartest shows ever to air on primetime national TV. It has a convoluted plot, complex, multifaceted characters, and constant moral dilemmas that have no easy answer. It's not uncommon for a given episode's resolution to make the viewer feel like they're morally opposed to the way the plot unfolded, but can't think of an objectively better way to deal with the situation. It's basically a brilliant deconstruction of Grey-and-Gray Morality, and it is currently getting murdered at the ratings. The show just is not easy to watch.
- For many reasons, most of which have to do with the sexual/gender politics of the show.
