This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Robert Bingham: Saying that this is basically Downer Ending is not enough to cutlist this particular trope. Yes, it's a Downer Ending, but it's a specific kind of Downer Ending much like Shoot the Shaggy Dog is. There are several YKTTW's on this trope that one should consult in the meantime. As is, the description is far too short, and it definitely needs more examples, and I may be cribbing from the YKTTW's in question in order to provide them.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: This Needs A Better Description if we keep it. The ultimate Downer Ending is Shoot the Shaggy Dog, and that trope covers the most severe examples of this one. And usually, if it is a Downer Ending and there is a non-protagonist villain, the villain will have won; taking the villain down with you makes for a Bittersweet Ending.
Wyvernil: I agree that this is a specific type of Downer Ending. The villain can still get killed in a Downer Ending (see Kill Em All), it's just that the universe doesn't necessarily get any better. A Bittersweet Ending would be something like "the villain is defeated, but it required a Heroic Sacrifice on the part of The Hero or the Love Interest, so it's not entirely happy".
Shoot the Shaggy Dog has a subtle distinction; not only does the hero lose, but the whole story proved to be meaningless.
Goldfritha: Thirty Five Minutes Ago is not the same as this. Thirty Five Minutes Ago is a specific subtrope: the bad guys win because the heroes are too late. Other possibilities are overwhelming force, The Mole paralyzing them, etc.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: No, this is not the same as Thirty Five Minutes Ago. But this cannot stick as a true Downer Ending unless it's Thirty Five Minutes Ago. Overwhelming force can be overcome: there is a reason for the Law Of Conservation Of Ninjitsu. The Mole can sometimes be persuaded to do a Heel–Face Turn. It's not final until it was Thirty Five Minutes Ago. If it can be undone, then it isn't as crushing an ending as this entry was suggesting it was - just a Sequel Hook, or just another day of Failure Is the Only Option.
Rothul: Points well taken. Let's see what we can do about distinguishing the two similar, yet separate tropes.
Goldfritha: Thirty Five Minutes Ago requires that the heroes show up too late, and it would be nonsense to say that the villains can't win without it. Overwhelming force can't be overcome if they've already slaughtered the opposition. Once The Mole has let them in, it may not even matter if he does do a Heel–Face Turn. The holy artifact may be shattered past repair, the diabolic ritual may have been completed, the person they set out to kill may be dead — loads of ways you can have the bad guys win, and have it stick, without Thirty Five Minutes Ago.
Goldfritha: Cut this because, no, the guy out to foment war and murder Buttercup lost.
- Technically, The Princess Bride. Yep, it isn't always a Downer Ending.
Keith Fraser: Could someone please explain how Neon Genesis Evangelion is a clear example of this trope? Third Impact occurs, but it is not under the control of SEELE or Gendo - it's under the control of Rei, who allows Shinji to freely choose the outcome. He chooses to return to life, and it's implied anyone else who wants to can too. At least, I think that's what happened.
Some Guy: All right, guys? I changed the page quote and we're going to keep it at this one. Why you ask? Because it doesn't have a spoiler. Don't make me explain to you why page quotes shouldn't have spoilers.
Not sure what to replace it with, but I don't like the image caption - since when is an affably-evil villain any easier to actually live under? —Document N
