This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
(moved from "I Love Katie Holmes Discussion)
From YKTTW
Mary Shrieks: Dunno if anyone's interested, but I saw the perfect picture for this article today. I'm trying to find it online. It's a self-portrait by Frida Kahlo showing her with a red string wrapped around her neck, but the number of self-portraits she's done makes it rather difficult to locate. If anyone else finds it first they're welcome to put it up.
Ununnilium: Meh; I would have far preferred Strangled by the Red String. This'll feel like the Macarena in six months.
Jisu: Me too. Also, I know we've got a war on "this editor" comments going on, but I loved that comment and had to keep it in.
Adam850: This trope name always seemed to me to be lawsuit bait. Probably paranoia.
Susan Davis: Harry and Ginny hook up in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince with no real build up — No, they don't. Rowling started setting those two up in book 1, and it was painfully obvious the whole time that Ginny worshipped the ground that Harry walked on. Harry, furthermore, got surly and jealous when Ginny was dating other boys, even before admitting to himself that he liked her.
SAMAS: Before this erupts into a shipping war, how about a compromise, in that the relationship was set up, but not much time given to actual development.
Fast Eddie: Seconded, thirded, or n-thed! The title is just asking for a buncha crap about a specific actor or a specific instance of the trope. I have no idea what it means, until reading the article, either. Howabout something that just plain old states the premise. Like Designated Relationship?
Also, "This'll feel like the Macarena in six months." XD
// later: Holy Cow! The actress specified doesn't even show up in the examples. Rename coming, unless defended soon.
Seth: I'm a little late to the discussion but Strangled by the Red String is a much better name. So is Ass Pull Relationship (I also like the idea of something like Deus Ex Romantica)
Susan Davis: So do we have consensus on renaming this to Strangled by the Red String?
Ununnilium: "Her intense paranoia often shows itself in her narrative choices, as does her hostility towards fans." ...oooookay.
hushicho: Okay Un, whoever the heck you are, stop editing my edits. The notation on the author — who has been proven by many sources to be this way, and if you don't believe me look it up yourself — is necessary to point out in the context of the entry. This is why those series are even in here. Please think before you continually edit someone else's work, just because you might like a series. There are series on this wiki that I like that get criticised, but I have the presence of mind to realise that they do belong in the tropes they're in.
Seth: Uh - whoever you are - people editing others work is what a wiki is about and that particular segment would be edited by me as well if i saw it first. Not because it criticises a series i like (Since i dislike ranma anyway) but because it is blatantly biased and doesn't add anything. The entry works without calling her a paranoid control freak, since that is a matter of opinion. It is Writer on Board and fans reacted badly to it, that is all we need to know. An author can't really be a control freak about their own work since everything from the laws of physics to the colour of the characters underwear is already under their control. And she is hardly the first person to react badly to Fannon.
We work on a sort of informal seniority here, if 5 editors including some of the most long running and respected ones in the wiki who wrote half our guidelines think your phrasing it wrong it is most probably wrong - accept that anything submitted to a wiki will be edited and may in the end by a consensus against your opinion end up totally different.
Ununnilium: Hee, thanks. Basically, what Seth said; we don't need personal attacks in the entries.
Roland: I don't know if the FFVIII entry is fair. The relationship between Rinoa and Squall is pretty much the core basis of the entire story, and, if you ask me, is foreshadowed and built up well in advance. It's not like Squall suddenly switches from 'antisocial loner' to 'lovestruck adolescent' in one scene...
Shire Nomad: You're going to have to give examples. I don't remember seeing a scrap of evidence he thought of her as anything besides a Clingy Jealous Girl (and maybe a professional client) right up to the moment he suddenly couldn't live without her in Disc 3.
Seth: It was foreshadowed yes, but not really believable. I remember when playing it when they fell in love it came totally out of the blue for me (A sort of Willing Suspension of Disbelief breaker - or Ass Pull if you will) in hindsight you see it coming and it was hardly unexpected since most games/films have the main character hook up at some point.
But if he was attracted to women then why didn't he bang respond to Quistis at the start? Honestly squalls character does a sort of 180 during that game, and that in itself isn't foreshadowed or even explained until the fourth disk, after he falls in love. I always felt that most of that game after the defeat of Edea at the end of disk 2 was a sort of Space Flea From Nowhere tacked on to make it longer. It is still my favourite FF game in the series though.
Rebochan: Yay, my munchkin! All right, you want examples of Squall being attracted to Rinoa? 1. Not telling her to bugger off and leave him alone when she wanted to dance with him. Not ten minutes later he told Quistis to talk to a wall when she tried to get just as close to him. 2. Being disappointed when he found out Rinoa was looking for and had been dating Seifer. 3. The fact that she was the only character in the entire game he spoke straight to for most of it. He completely told Rinoa off about her plans after the broadcast plan was a failure, even though he hid his feelings from everyone else and otherwise thought of himself as an emotionless soldier.
And there's more, but you'll forgive me if it's been awhile since I played FFVIII. All my PS 1 memory cards are missing and I can't bring out my old saves now. Sigh. But yea, I know there's a chunk of the fandom that seems to think that because Cloud and Tifa had LOVE INTERESTS spelled out in the first minutes of FFVII and Squall and Rinoa developed more believably, their relationship required Squall to turn a 180.
Joie De Combat: Just to add to the examples already given, there's also the entire concert scene, in which Rinoa tells Squall several things that he needs to hear, including (in as many words) "we love you" - the first time in the game and potentially the first time in Squall's life since Ellone that anybody actually takes the time to directly express to him that they care about him. (Compare the scene with Quistis near the beginning of the game, in which Quistis is looking primarily for moral support for herself.) While the full impact of the conversation isn't entirely apparent until Squall's Freudian Excuse is revealed later on, given the nature of his damage it's not surprising that he latches onto Rinoa the way that he does, or that he refuses to express it until confronted with the possibility of losing her.
Ununnilium: Yanking out:
- A rare case of Truth in Television: Tom Cruise accompanied the sudden 2005 revelation that he was dating Katie Holmes with such erratic behaviors and extravagant emotional expressions that many only questioned the reality of the relationship. Some maligned gossip columnists speculated that their romance was only an stunt, given the apparent semi-apathy of Ms. Holmes and the antecedents of Mr. Cruise (who included a long marriage suspiciously ended and on-and-off rumors about his sexuality). Two years, a baby, and a expensive marriage later, there are still people who have doubts about the true reasons behind their romance, or if there was a real one to begin with.
...because, c'mon. You don't know, I don't know, and this is not a page for celebrity gossip. Shudder.
Big T: It seems weird to me to remove the one example that was responsible for the creation of this trope. You do remember the original name, don't you? Obviously, the above version goes into way too much detail, but it seems wrong to leave out the actual history of the trope. It'd be like deleting the YKTTW.
Meh, I don't know why I'm saying anything. I'm not going to edit against Uun's wishes (I consider him practically an admin), and chances are he'll never see this. I guess it just felt good to get my opinion out somewhere....
Tanto: Deleted the Tales of Symphonia example because it's not really about romance. Lloyd can only "date" two members of the party, and by the point this option becomes available the romance is really irrelevant...in fact, the obvious leanings for Colette pushes this closer to a straight example in my eyes, but again, the romance is really very secondary.
Morganite: How about Ar Tonelico: Melody of Elemia for an averersion of the video game type? Mind you, the player might not *know* that one of the choices involved has that sort of effect, if they haven't played before...
Ronfar: I always thought of Anakin as the Stalker with a Crush... and thought that the lack of standard romantic chemistry was because Anakin was supposed to be creepy, not attractive. Why Amidala would fall for her creepy Stalker with a Crush is beyond me, though.
Greenygal: "Many fans felt this way about the second Green Arrow, who was raised to be a monk with no interest in sex...until a writer swooped in and had him sleep with some girl he just met, to prove his manliness and heterosexuality. This was more or less brushed under the rug after the inevitable backlash, but it was enough to pretty much finish the character in his own series, and the writer got a quick boot out." Any source for the last sentence? The series wasn't cancelled until two years afterward, and I'd never heard anybody suggest it was due to backlash over that scene (dumb as it was).
Man Called True: As per my "ask and wait before delete" policy: I wouldn't say Tidus/Yuna is a case of red-string strangulation. He's interested in her on first sight, sure, but it's fairly low-key until "Suteki Da Ne" (which is half the game away at that point) - if I recall correctly, the first time it's explicitly called love isn't until several in-game days later, at Guadosalam. Not quite so bad as Squall/Rinoa.
Twin Bird: Does Jacinda really count as a Depraved Bisexual? She cheats on Gabby - and I'm not even sure I'd count it as cheating, since she's mostly honest about it. Go to that page and you find mostly killers, with a smattering of abusive partners, nonviolent sociopaths, and characters who are technically innocent but clearly Ax-Crazy. She fits Anything That Moves to a T, but depraved?
Andrew: Does the KOTOR example really qualify? The player-Bastilla attraction is built up for a long time before the consummating kiss, and it doesn't seem logical or out-there for these two people to fall for each other.
Karalora: Edited the Avatar example to remove unnecessary and confusing bias.
Pestulens: anyone considered adding the Max, Marea plot line form the original Macross (super dimensional or hyper dimensional as you prefer) They had all of three sens together and where trying to kill eatch otehr in two of them then suddenly they are getting maread.
Lale: Moved the Sky High example to Relationship Writing Fumble.
Rebochan: The Lupin/Tonks Word of God is not that there had to be an orphan, but that someone had to die and it had to be someone's parent(s). Since she spared Arthur Weasly, she moved on to Lupin and Tonks. Which this troper still found to be crazy brutal, but the point is, the person who posted otherwise was claiming the wrong Word of God.
Dalantia: I really.. don't like the Bioware examples. They smell strongly of Complaining About Games You Dont Like, or in this case, complaining about choices you don't like. The fact that the rest of the party just isn't interested in the main character that way (or doesn't swing that way) doesn't make them Strangled. I'm contemplating pulling them.
Later edit: Did pull them. replaced with single line about C[=RPGs=], because that's ultimately true.
Idler: Surely Matt/Janice and Isaac/Simone from Heroes don't count? They were together before the beginning of the series. Peter and Simone also knew each other beforehand.
Cambdoranononononono: I agree and have pulled the first two examples as a result.
Anomaly: Removed the Serenity example, because like Natter had mentioned, it wasn't an example.
Darmani: Awww, I miss the lovely to the point indictment of Mai Hime's main romance. Tate isn't just unsympathetic as a romantic lead its retarded I'm suppose to find Mai's confusion with him dramatically worth it versus everythind else going on.
DT: I can’t address the specific criticisms of Mai and Tate’s relationship that were once listed on this page since I never got a chance to read them, but I can think of plenty of reason not to list that pairing here. This page is about pairings that seem forced and implausible. Mai and Tate on the other hand are actually quite well written and convincing. There are good reasons why they end up with feelings for each other.
Also, Mai wasn’t just upset about losing a potential boyfriend (especially considering she didn’t even really acknowledge that as a possibility for a long time). One of the big reasons Mai liked Tate was because he understood her and was one of the few people she felt comfortable talking about her problems with. Heck, that was pretty much the main reason she was able to get over her initial bad impression of him.
Lastly, I think that Tate is actually a pretty decent guy. Yeah, he screwed up and ended up hurting people he cared about, but he's a teenager, and teenagers often do stupid things. He seemed to genuinely care about the people he was trying to help, and in my view that counts for something.
Annwyd: Pulled this:
- In the subject of Gundam 00, some fans have accused the new Official Pairing of Allelujah Haptism and Soma Peiris of being in this situation. It's too early to judge, but we'll see...
Because come on, guys, the episode just came out today. It says right there in the entry: it's too early to judge, especially considering there are eighteen episodes to go. If they proceed to prance off into the sunset hugging and kissing over the course of those eighteen episodes, then sure, put it back in.
DT: Your Mileage May Vary, but I think this one definitely deserves to be an example. Seriously, all it takes is her coming into contact with Allelujah and suddenly she completely swaps personalities and is instantly in love with him. Yeah, her 'other' personality had met him as a child, but it still didn't seem right for her to just fall for him like that. That could partly be my dissatisfaction with the more or less complete about turn in terms of her overall personality though.
Austin: I accidently hit the send button before the edit summary, but in the Ben 10 tree, I deleted a link to a Deviant Art picture said to sum up fans feelings with Ben telling the two to just get together and stop taking up his screen time. From what I've read on this site, the problem isn't Will Theyor Wont They, but the potential relationship existing at all.
- Scarab This is probably my inner shipper talking, but I wonder whether this trope strangles quite as tightly when you’re dealing with things like distant epilogues. I mean it’s not like all relationships develop overnight or at least during a conveniently designated timeframe (i.e. actually during the series). Just because a pairing wasn’t usually even hinted at in the series when a bunch of heroes are, say, sixteen, doesn’t mean it’s not going to be possible that they fall in love over a decade later... Meh, I guess it stil counts, seeing as it still feels rammed down the viewer’s throat because they don’t see the development, but I still find it to be one of the less frustrating examples of the trope because it can conceivably be explained better than other examples. At least it gives the shippers plenty to play with.
Taelor: removed the Naruto example, as even the person who wrote it admits that it does not qualify.
Zeke: Cut from the TNG example:
- Perhaps the worst part is the episode where Worf drifts between several parallel universes and finds that he's married to Troi in almost all of them.
. It's unlikely that the same thing will change twice in a row. So once Worf is on the "married to Troi" path, it's reasonable that he'll stay there for a while.
- This troper is of a similar belief that the said setup for Ron and Hermione could just be construed as Ron being an uncaring ass (as was common early on towards anything that didn't fit his world view), and only clinging onto her when in need of her brain or realizing that she wasn't going to do what he needed of her (The yule ball incident). Again, it was not until the joke that was the 6th book that said unjustified pairing became existent. Any outside observer could see that such a relationship would be little more than an abusive farce without magical interference. Not everything you look sback on in previous book is actual foreshadowing, after all.
Oh hai, look, someone's complaining about characters and pairings they don't like! Just because the troper doesn't like Ron doesn't mean the pairing wasn't foreshadowed all to HELL with anvil sized hint it was coming. Just because Ron acts like *gasp* a teenage boy sometimes doesn't make the pairing inadequate. The times he's acted caring or protective or loving toward Hermione are too many to count. As for abuse, are you kidding me? Hermione gives as good as she gets towards Ron, and the only one who's ever even bordered on abusive in the relationship is her, the times she's attacked them. And yes, we all know you're a wounded Harmonian. Go cry somewhere, but just because you don't like the pairing, doesn't mean it fits this trope.
- There is a SINGLE (and EXTREMELY subtle) reference to Harry's latent attraction to Ginny in The Half Blood Prince prior to the scene where Harry and Ron catch Ginny kissing her boyfriend Dean. (For those of you who missed it i.e all of you, it's the smell of the love potion in Slughorn's first potions class, described as changing for each person according to what attracts them; according to Word of God the "something flowery he thought he might have smelled at the Burrow" Harry smells is Ginny's hair). Apart from this, Harry shows not the slightest attraction to Ginny in the book up until the debut of his "chest monster", from which point on he is basically obsessed with her.
Really? That wasn't subtle at all. When Ginny came up to Harry, he recognized the smell from the potion. That's pretty blatant. Subtlety /=/ not paying attention?
- It might be worth pointing out that with the introduction of Love potions in said book, THAT is the only plausible cause for the final pairings of the main characters
Really now? Really? We're going there? Reread the effects love potions have. Also, reread all those places where Ron and Hermione were foreshadowed to hell. Also, reread the books, period. None of the characters would ever do something like that. Get over your shipping delusions. This isn't Strangled By the Red String. This is sad.
blackcat I have moved this example here because Rosemary spends the entire play pursuing Finch and the suburban life marriage to an up and coming executive will guarantee her. While individual productions of the show may feature a Finch and Rosemary without chemistry (it happens) that does not appear to be the playwright's intent.
- The two main characters, Finch and Rosemary, in How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying have absolutely zero chemistry despite, maybe even because, the only real reason for her to exist is to be paired with him.
Lale: Mai's and Zuko's childhood romance makes them a New Old Flame example.
Orihime: Am I the only one who's MAJORLY TWITCHING at many examples? Some of them sound less like genuine Strangled by the Red String and more like "WAAAAAAAAAAH, I hate this pairing so I'll put them here, stroke my ego by supporting my claim PLZ". As an example:
- Worsening the matter was the fact that most logical evidence from the first season (and especially The Movie, which had an entire fricking Slap-Slap-Kiss subplot dedicated to the idea) was pushing Taichi and Sora together (Taiora). Taichi's affection for Sora was then confirmed in the episode in which she got together with Yamato... by having her shoot Taichi down when he finally asked her out! The show's English dub seemed to be a Taiora supporter, too, since it magnified quite a few Taiora elements (again, particularly with the movie), and even inserted a couple of lines after Sora and Yamato got together that involved Sora worrying more about Taichi's feelings that Matt's. Even the Japanese production staff of the fourth movie seemed to take issue with the pairing, including a scene in which Sora is standing directly between Taichi and her boyfriend, Yamato, and when she is startled by something, she clings to Taichi!
Keep your rabid pro-Taiora agenda elsewhere, PLEASE. While there IS a SBTRS element in Yamato/Sora, your whining makes you true intention (bash the fuck out of a pairing you don't like) crystal clear.
Farseer Lolotea: Does the Garona/Medivh one-night stand that resulted in the conception of Med'an in the World Of Warcraft Comic count? I mean, it was just a one-night stand...but there was nothing to so much as hint at it until the writers decided to pull it out of their butts to explain why there's a new Guardian of Tirisfal all of a sudden.
Nithael: (One month later) I think that it doesn't qualify; the "ship" is not so much a Plot Tumor or a relationship written badly (especially since One of the two is already dead when it's revealed) than a retroactive reveal that they were together while nothing hinted that (like Turalyon and Alleria in World Of Warcraft too). Is there a trope for that?
Bring The Noise: Is Preacher really an example? The core of the description is " Where the main character, who was once single, is implausibly thrown into a relationship that's forced down the audience's throat". Jesse and Tulip isn't that implausible. They're deeply in love but have an ongoing fight over one big issue is fairly realistic surely?
Bring The Noise: If there's no objections I'll cut the example tomorrow.
Bring The Noise: Cut.
