This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
White and Grey Morality launched as Rousseau Was Right: From YKTTW
YKTTW Proposal by Koveras (Humans Are Good):
The opposite of Humans Are Bastards, this one is more like a theme than a trope: a strong pro-humanity statement, it states that all humans are genuinely and intrinsically good and noble. All their weaknesses and atrocities are merely mistakes and misunderstandings of each other. Once these have been cleared, Utopia will realize itself along the way. If played subtly and not just through pompous speeches, this theme can be extremely powerful.
The most obvious identifier of this theme is the absence of villains in the show. Not even a Well-Intentioned Extremist is allowed inside. The immediate problem with this is the difficulty of starting a conflict. I mean, who'd watch a series without a conflict? The problem may be solved by pitting the humanity against a cosmic cataclysm, or Scary Dogmatic Aliens, or simply giving characters conflicting ideals. In the latter case, the conflict WILL be resolved peacefully in the end.
May be related to Humans Are Special. From what I've seen so far, Space Opera is the setting that achieves best results with this theme.
Examples:
- Well, the Golden Age of Soviet Sci Fi is all about this. Read Ivan Efremov's Andromeda for the Ur Example.
- This theme is very powerful in Stellvia Of The Universe. In fact, there isn't even a single negative character in the series. Even the aliens are good.
- Scrapped Princess sees nearly every human character behave with a degree of honor and decency. The villains are not humans but alien machines designed to keep humanity in the Middle Ages forever.
Koveras: I'm not so sure about making the opening quotations the same font size as the main text... In the articles where there are just a few lines of them, it may be fine but not here, with a line, a paragraph, and a dialogue excerpt on top. I just have slight trouble recognizing where the quotes and the main part starts. :-)
- I would disagree with that. The Mule is able to understand and get people to understand him on a mind to mind level. Asimov does, however, make it clear that once The Mule gets some special psychotherapy, he is no longer a threat.
I disagree. The Mule isn't telepathic, just empathic.
Ninjacrat: Pulled
Whit: Connie, that was a noble and wonderful speech. Unfortunately, it was also one of the most ridiculous things I ever heard.
Ununnilium: Putting back in the stuff about "Imagine"; IMHO, it fits.
Koveras: I removed the Pokemon example because it contained the title only and it is so NOT Self Explanatory.
T Matt: Pulled
Whit: Connie, that was a noble and wonderful speech. Unfortunately, it was also one of the most ridiculous things I ever heard.
Caswin: It's still a clear reference to Rousseau-style philosophy, and while the show never tries to glorify humans at large as all that noble (as that exchange shows), it certainly never drifts to the opposite end of the spectrum, either. I'd like to put it back in.
Uknown Troper: Removed the Batman example. If the film would be an example of Rousseau Was Right, the Joker wouldn't be in it.
Koveras: Yeah, that's basically the idea behind the motif...
Meta Four: I've moved the examples from White and Gray Morality here, and turned that into a redirect to this article. Below is the discussion from that article:
Narvi: Isn't this just Rousseau Was Right?
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: It does seem to be working on a similar principle. Rousseau Was Right doesn't even allow the Well Intentioned Extremists, but it's already popular...
Servbot: "The most obvious identifier of this theme is the absence of genuine Villains in the show." - from Rousseau Was Right.
The only difference this trope has is that it considers the Well-Intentioned Extremist as part of the Gray part. We could just remove that sentence in Rousseau Was Right if tropers consider Extremists as gray enough.
Meta Four: Merging this with Rousseau Was Right sounds like a good idea.
Big T: After the merge, we may just want to make this a redirect, now that we are officially redirecting more obscure titles. At least, I wouldn't know to search for Rousseau...
Koveras: I removed following entry:
- Surprisingly enough, everyone in Neon Genesis Evangelion really does just want what's best.
I'm sorry, but No. Just... No. I respect Eva and I agree that all its characters do what they hold for best but having EVERY character being either a psycho or a Well-Intentioned Extremist is completely and utterly beside the point of this trope. "Humans are good" is the motto here, not "humans are insane and/or manipulative creatures who fight blindly for their goals (if they have any)".
Tricky Pacifist: Um, I realize the "Religion" section got rather overloaded with natter and arguments, but I don't feel the answer to that is to eliminate the whole section. The concept may be one that's hotly debated, but you'd have to be pretty out of it to argue that there aren't religions out there (in fact all religions, at least in some denominations) that believe this. I suggest reinstating the religion entry, and direct any argument to the discussion section here.
Zenra: Yeah, um, our Philosophy class doesn't say about Rousseau saying 'man is good'. Our professor said Rousseau said the nature of man's "amoral": neither good nor bad. John Locke's the guy who said 'man is good', though. So Yeah
Tricky Pacifist: Clearly, you and I had very different philosophy classes. Our professor explained that according to Rousseau's Second Discourse there are two essential characteristics to human beings: self-preservation and what he called "natural pity," which is an aversion to pain in others more primal than compassion. The second is the one which leads to White and Gray Morality. So Yeah.
Tricky Pacifist: While I do enjoy the Game Theory discussion, I think it belongs in a section other than Real Life, such as Philosophy or Other. (Reason being that Game Theory rests on assumptions which are philosophical rather than obviously true.)
Charred Knight: I removed Code Geass just because of the massive death toll that Lelouch and Charles inflicted on the world. Yes, they thought what they where doing was best but they where also both nuts. For example in the final battle Lelouch blew up Mt. Fuji killing all the civilians around Mt. Fuji not to mention the death toll of Zero Requiem in which he managed to surpass Charles in 2 months.
