Archived Discussion Main / MildlyMilitary

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

LO Rd: Applied a Justifying Edit to the Last Exile and Fullmetal Alchemist examples, because the people in question really aren't military.

Tarvok: Regarding families aboard the Enterprise, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the idea that "military families" are not unknown, either in fiction or history. For example, garrisons in Northern China at some point in their history (it's been a long time since I read it, so I don't remember when) were staffed not with mere career soldiers, but whole families, the aim being that their future generations would be soldiers, as well. One of the archetypes in After the Bomb (the new one) is also this "military family" archetype. I can imagine Starfleet making their Galaxy Class vessels into an experiment in generational explorer/military vessels—not so much a vessel, as a highly mobile colony that is potentially self sustaining. I hope some discussion can result in a cleaning up of this part of the main entry.

Fast Eddie: Evidently, this example needs further discussion ...

• Mass Effect manages to both avert this trope and demonstrate it rather blatantly; on the one hand, the codex details the Alliance military to the point of smaller ships having half as many beds as crew, requiring trade-offs at watch change. There's even a mini-dictionary for military jargon. The player's ship, a small one, actually has a bunk area where the player can see the first example in action. On the other hand, the helmsman has brittle-bone disease and his legs will break if he stands up without crutches. This troper knows someone turned away from enlistment due to an Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis as well as another turned away because of a decade-old knee injury who would love to meet this guy's recruiter.
  • Handwaved in that, as a ship pilot, he doesn't actually NEED to get out of his seat. Also, he may suffer from 'Teen Genius' exemption.
  • I wouldn't call that a handwave, as the original point is that someone with this condition today wouldn't make it into the recruiter's office, let alone to that seat in the first place. 'Teen Genius' doesn't apply, because, if pressed, the character makes a heavy point of the fact that he wasn't born with his skills, he trained harder than everyone else to be better than they were.
  • The player's character is Commander Shepard, who is supposed to be a famous military officer and representative of humanity in the eyes of the rest of most sapient races in the galaxy. He (or she if so chosen) is also the first human Spectre, a highly prestigious position in a sort of above-the-law law enforcement officer role. For the human race, your characters' actions carry a great deal of political importance, as they are pushing for recognition in the eyes of the Council, and by extension the rest of the "Citadel" races. However, you have the option to punch a smarmy reporter ON CAMERA, on intragalactic television, and receive what amounts to a verbal slap on the wrist. In fairness this may be partially because the game gives little warning as to what your dialog choice will lead to. It is unlikely to be due to the character's role as a Spectre. Rogue Spectres have their authority revoked.

Alhazred: I honestly didn't think there was anything wrong with it in the first place, although since I'm the one who started it, the reaction to that statement could understandably be "What a surprise."

Anywoo, the "but wait!" edits into it (including the one that's not there anymore) have, I think, been reasonably argued against. I'd like to see both bullet points about handwaving just be deleted, myself. The idea of the trope is that the military can be represented with very watered-down standards and/or formalities in fiction; a character with brittle-bone disease who can't stand up unaided is an example of this, because this wouldn't happen in a million years in present-day reality; no military on Earth has a separate boot-camp for the disabled (boot-camp-like rehab centers for disabled veterans, obviously, don't count, since the character in question is active-duty and joined the military like anyone else.) Perhaps it would work better if the original bullet-point was actually wordier, explaining the character enough that it's clear to anyone who hasn't played the game or just didn't go through that dialog tree that this is exactly what happened, without the befit of a handwave? It's also possible to go into further examples, but I think keeping it to one HUGE example is good for keeping it concise. Extra examples would logically belong as separate indented points on the list.

Re: the reporter example. The counterpoint that's been edited out was this: "Of course, then again, you ARE a member of the uber-secret plausible deniability Spectre agency, which can literally get away with galactic genocide."

This statement contains blatant errors about the fluff: First, Spectres aren't secret (although the game notes that they were in the past, it also notes that this is no longer true.) Spectres don't have plausible deniability, stories of what they do get out all the time and no one really cares. They answer directly to the Citadel Council. They have freedom to complete their missions by any means required. Their missions are, no matter the details, always concerning affairs of the Citadel Council and therefore the citizens in Citadel Space that they provide government for. Spectres do not literally get away with galactic genocide or with blatant criminal activity. Although things people might be charged with crimes for will be ignored if it's done in the process of completing their mission, the Spectre in the game who attacks a human colony for no reason other than to steal the secrets of an alien artifact before he tries to blow the whole colony up immediately has his Spectre status revoked by the council when proof of these actions comes to light.

To sum up: the original statement was flat-out wrong. The fleshed out version of the reporter example addresses all of these issues, I don't think it needs a content overhaul. Edits for sentence structure and plain old wordyness might be another story.

Unknown Troper: I'd also like to point out the blatant ignorance with the bullet point about the reporter and losing your Spectre status. Shepard is permitted to kill as s/he sees fit to complete her mission and/or deal with threats to herself. No one would blink an eye at s/he beating up a nosy reporter, and the alien species would probably agree with Shepard's actions, considering the reporter in question is a blatant xenophobe. One of the sidequests available to you if you use the Earthborn background involves you potentially gunning down a xenophobic criminal in public and in cold blood, and the only reaction from the aliens all around you is approval. The Council would not give two shits about Shepard beating up a xenophobic reporter on galactic television; in fact, they'd probably replay it over and over again while munching on alien popcorn. The only people who object to it are the Systems Alliance military, and Admiral Hackett seems more ambivilant about it than anything else. The general opinion seems to be "The bitch deserved it."

Servbot: Removed the needlessly part of the Nanoha example. Teana was hysterical and likely a danger to herself by the time Nanoha decided she "needed to cool down".

Dentaku: I put it back, since she didn't have to almost kill her subordinate to make a point. She could simply have restrained her, like she did with Subaru.

Servbot: Actually, to quote Shamal in the start of the following episode "Nanoha-chan's magic training bullets are well made, so they shouldn't have done any damage to your body". So as explosive as the attack was, the worse that would happen to the person is that they'll lose consciousness. Heck, Teana's one-shot certain kill attack that provoked the response was more lethal, since it actually cut into Nanoha and made her bleed.

And as the same episode pointed out, Nanoha took out Teana in that manner (with Teana's own trademark spell) to prove that the shooting spells she's been practicing doesn't suck. She could have restrained Teana in the same way that she did Subaru, but she wanted to prove a point, as you say. Only her point was that her abilities aren't as worthless as she thinks.

So Yeah, I would still have to disagree on the needlessly part.

Dentaku: It was still needless, especially in conjunction with the military setting (which is the point of this trope). Any trainer who deliberately causes unconsciousness with one of his subordinates would have to answer for it to his superiors and probably be reprimanded, to say the least. Becoming unconscious from a physical assault is a very serious condition that can easily lead to permanent damage. If Nanoha can restrain Subaru, she could have done the same with Teana.

Servbot: That's the thing though. Nanoha didn't knock her out using Physical Damage. She used Magical Damage, the Nanoha world Hand Wave on why people can befriend each other without utterly obliterating them. What we know about the dangers of knocking people out cold physically... can't exactly be applied here since Magical Damage has its own rules.

Great Limmick: I also got the impression that Hayate has considerable leeway in the management of Division 6. She may have given Nanoha a freer hand than she usually has during training exercises.

• I think that a much better example are the manners of bridgre crews in TSAB Navy, which is even said to be loathed by Ground Forces for their laid-back attitude and lack of proper following of rules. On the other hand, considering I wouldn't find it surprising if Nanoha shooting down Teana is not actually a perfectly normal training procedure. In fact, you might probably find similar actions in elite training units of real-world military, when said trainee doesn't seem to get it by reason. I think the only time Nanoha would be reprimanded would be when she somehow would kill or permanently (or for long time) disabled her trainee. There might be even a similar rule as in the so called "federation" from Legacy of Aldenaata, which allowed soldiers to kill people of lower castes basically at whim. (In order to prevent this, one of main characters says that he will use this law if any of his soldiers try to act like that, killing them off without trial.)
  • Truth in Television: samurai could and did kill peasants with impunity.

Nolrai: I'm not sure the whole thing is even really apart of Mildly Military because sever corporal punishments are argubly more common in the military (at least historically) then in other social settings!

Licky Lindsay: what is the U.S. Air Force doing as a Real Life example? Did someone from a rival military service put that in as a Take That!? I'm going to remove it and if someone wants to put it back in, they can defend it.

Nohbody: My edits to the Wing Commander entry were because I thought this trope was about discipline, not organizational quirks, but I'll go into specifics:

• The Terran Confederation Navy and the Terran Confederation Space Forces are two seperate organizations, they just happen to operate from the same base.
• There's ten years between 1 and 2, plenty of time for a uniform change. The Blair court martial scene at the beginning of 2 (which unlike the majority of the game was shortly after the Claw's loss) was a formal hearing, not the more informal aboard-ship time where uniforms are more relaxed. The 2 years betwen 2 and 3 is more questionable, but in 4 we see Tolwyn in full dress uniform similar to what he wore in 2, so it could just be that not being on the Confederation flagship (Concordia) the pilots in 3 and 4 go for more casual wear. On the other hand, Rachel gets forced into more formal uniform (and her hair bound instead of loose) when Tolwyn brings his flag aboard the Victory for the Behemoth missions.
• It's suggested or outright stated several times that the Confederation is desperate for pilots (see Maniac's off-screen mental breakdown, then his return in a later game), so busting someone for insulting a superior, especially if not done in public (IIRC), isn't absolutely going to happen. As for disobeying orders, busting the Hero Of The Day is not, in general, going to do much for one's position in the military.
• Fragging Maniac: Who said Halcyon was joking? In nearly 700 years, it's entirely possible rules regarding summary execution on the field may have reverted to the way it was handled in earlier times, when dicking around in battle very much could get you executed. In regards to Blair's guns/missiles query, considering a) He's pretty much Ensign Newbie at the time, and b) Maniac's reputation for screwing up missions is well earned, I'd half-jokingly say you couldn't find a court martial panel in the entire Terran Confederation armed forces that would blink at a summary execution of Maniac.
• Shotglass: Two words: Civilian contractor. They exist in Real Life militaries currently and have done so for many centuries previously, so why not in a fictional one centuries later?
• The novelization of 4 goes into detail about the depths of the conspiracy, pointing out that most of the upper command structures of the military were in on the Project, or at least didn't object to it. Taking it up the chain won't do much good if the trouble source's superiors are more than happy to squash you for daring to bother their fair-haired boy, and the civilian authorities are hamstringed by continuing martial law decrees left over from the war. Also, Tolwyn didn't really start showing signs of becoming General Ripper until much later, when Blair et al weren't exactly surrounded by friendlies (particularly not in the Black Lance contingent aboard the Lexington).

J Chance: Editing the Trek example, removing the incoherence and Complaining About Shows You Dont Like. It seems like Star Trek has been attracting a lot of that lately...is Mike Wong hanging around here?

Donaldthe Potholer: The Top Gun example isn't. Or if it is, needs to be clarified: Maverick had been punished previously. He lost his qualifications for section leader three times and had been grounded twice by his CO. Unfortunately, the CO had "another problem" that particular day. He had to send someone from his carrier to Top Gun, but his pick lost his nerve in the engagement that just concluded.

suszterpatt: Regarding Apocalypse Now, I think the less-than-military feeling of the movie is intentional, at least partly. Toward the end, Kurtz gives a nice big speech about how the war could have already been won if instead of enlisting hordes of unmotivated everymen, they used just 1/3 as many dedicated troops: the first half of the movie is meant to illustrate this very point. At least that's my interpretation, Your Mileage May Vary.