This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Working Title: Karma Houdini: From YKTTW
K9feline2: Removed the thrid Pink Panther subtrope for the second time. The reason I keep removing it is because I feel it's largely irrelevant to this trope. None of the "mitigating factors" in Lytton's framing of Clouseau changes the basic facts that Sir Charles and his cohorts are 1) guilty as sin and 2) get off scott-free while the one honest (and funniest) main character pays the penalty for their crimes, however temporarily. The first subtrope covers, I think, all that's needed in "justifying" Sir Charles & Co (namely that they were supposed to be the protagonists of the movie).
- Hey, what happened to the Real Life examples for this entry? It's not like there aren't plenty of those around. Are we afraid of being sued by someone who might find their name (or their ancestors name or their favorite war hero's name) here?
- Little question regarding Mayuri's Karma Houdini status... In the latest chapter of the manga, it's been revealed that he was held without charge in a secret prison, just because they THOUGHT he could go totally fucknuts. Granted, they were right, but does this make him a Karma Houdini, or an example of karma in reverse?
- In some cases, the story assumes only the main characters matter. Luke Skywalker can forgive Darth Vader and make it okay—if the only people who "count" as hurt by Darth Vader are Luke and his group. Citizen 999999 from some random planet, whose family Vader blew up, doesn't need to forgive Vader because he never appeared onscreen in the first place, so his losses aren't real.
Sunder The Gold: Darth Vader died to save his son, forsaking The Dark Side for the Light in an honest Heel–Face Turn, Heroic Sacrifice, Redemption Means Death, perhaps even Redemption Requires Death. AFTER that, Luke forgives him, but it was Vader's own actions that led to his reunion with the Light. That all seems more like a "Get Out of Jail Free" Card than Karma Houdini.
- Therefore, though "main characters forgiving villains too easily and without good cause" may be a legitimate variation, the example given is greatly off target. That example is what led to my "Religion and Mythology" entry, when both the example and the entry are better off in the "Get Out of Jail Free" Card article instead of this one.
Amethyst: I can't find the general "tropes" markup on the index menu anymore, so if anyone wants to properly index this entry, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
Lale: Darth Vader died. Cut.
Lale: Didn't Yami punish Kaiba with his "Mind Crush" in those lost episodes, that left him in a coma for awhile?
Drow Lord: If the lost episodes are anything like the manga, then yes, twice. The first time actually caused Kaiba to build the Death-T theme park. The second sent him on a journey of introspection with his soul cleansed of evil (or something along those lines). I'd argue against his inclusion here, but then I'd have to start thinking about that damn park again.
Kilyle: Anyone else see the crime drama ones (e.g., Law and Order) as annoying but proper? If they pinned down every single case they ever touched, I think the series would be much worse. The fact that some of them end with a downer ending (obviously guilty man gets off scot-free) or an ambiguous ending (he died, and now we'll never be sure if he was actually the killer or not) to me makes the series "more realistic" (inasmuch as that could ever be said of a crime drama) and watchable.
The practice also has strong social implications. The downer endings remind us that we still need to fix up the real legal system, to avoid letting things like that happen in real life as much as they currently do. The ambiguous endings, and those endings where an innocent suspect dies or suffers harm to his reputation, are there to remind us that people are innocent until proven guilty, and that the police at times honestly don't have all the answers. It's like 12 Angry Men, where we never learn the truth about the boy (whether he's guilty or not), but we do pause to consider the consequences of jurors who don't take the process seriously, or who decide based on factors other than the evidence, or who have an ax to grind, etc. (I think all jurors in major cases should be forced to watch that film prior to hearing the case.)
I often wonder about the public's opinion of "innocent until proven guilty"... we sure judge celebrities fast enough. Dunno about the rest of the world, but in my little corner of the world, Michael Jackson was shunned even before the case was heard. And then his songs about "don't judge me" and "aren't I entitled to due process?" were viewed as manipulative propaganda that practically proved his guilt. Eh well, that's off topic: I'm just saying, the Karma Houdini episodes make crime dramas a lot better than they would be without them.
Drow Lord: Can't argue with you, but that's part of the reason I hate watching crime dramas. I belong to the self-delusional school of thought which holds "I don't want realism, I see it in real life often enough."
Except for the whole "Innocent until insinuated Guilty" thing the media seems to like. That's pretty much a Truth in Television version of Viewers Are Morons.
Johnny E: To be fair, "innocent until proven guilty" isn't a moral code, it's a legal one. You're allowed to think the suspect is guilty, but if you're on a jury you have to ignore that prejudice and weigh the evidence presented to you.
- Zuko from Avatar The Last Airbender is a borderline case. While it's true that he has spent a lot of time soul searching, his mistakes have caused him pain, and he has done some good deeds along the way, it probably doesn't fully make up for the amount of damage he's caused by chasing the Avatar, or his betrayal of Katara at the crystal caves of Old Ba Sing Seh. Then again, Katara has made it clear that he's still on her hit list, and Aang has made it clear that the only reason Zuko is getting this karmic get out of jail free card is because they need him.
Jordan: I'm not sure I agree with Zuko being here- he's more like an example of "Get Out of Jail Free" Card, isn't he?
Bob: I agree. Also, even if he did fit the profile, it would be still be premature putting him up as an example. The series hasn't ended yet.
Rothul: Agreed... also the wording is suspect: "Betrayed Katara"? Can you really betray someone you were never allied with? Isn't the point of all his angsting is that Zuko seriously thought that he was becoming a traitor against his homeland... the fear that it was the Fire Nation he was betraying? I don't know if the Worthy Opponent really counts as a villain once he finally comes around.
Sunder The Gold: Agreed. While his "betrayal" of Katara is significant, it's not that significant, especially next to the idea of betraying his beloved country — his home and people — as well as the father he so desperately loves and wants to please. Really, the truly significant betrayal is choosing his jerkass father over Uncle Iroh.
The G Aang's position is much easier to understand than Zuko's, because we've spent two seasons seeing things from the perspective of the other three nations. Our only peek into the Fire Nation have been villains, anti-villains, and reformed villains. We're not well equipped to understand Zuko's position.
Roland: Correct me if I'm wrong, but only Protestant Christianity holds that faith alone in Jesus will bring one heavenly absolution, no? In Catholicism at least, good works are also considered important- to the point that they may have conceded virtuous nonbelievers don't necessarily go to Hell.
Big T: Not even most Protestants take the faith alone approach. James 2:24 (NIV) says, "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." It's kind of hard to argue against something when the Word of God disagrees. Still, some disagree, just like fans of other works.
Danel: The whole faith-alone thing in the first place was a reaction to what was perceived as a Karma Houdini at the time - rich bastards buying their way into heaven by leaving their property to the church, buying 'indulgences', or establishing chapels to pray for the salvation of their soul. Unfortunately, it's now gone too far in the other direction, with some of the stupidest things even implying that you should avoid doing good deeds entirely, because that's worryingly Catholic. The one I'd believe - if I believed at all - is that good works are an essential consequence of the faith.
Meocross: i think the Avatar Airbender show is a whole Karma Houdini in it's self for getting so much Crap-Past-The-Censors on NICKOLOADION Who is literately 4Kids Brother.
Willy Four Eyes: Uh...what?
Johnny E: "Literately"? The irony, she burns me.
Danel: The King Of Queens example just looks silly - all around it we have mass murderers and rapists, and here we have some woman throwing water on her husband's face. What?
Lord Seth: Deleted:
- Also in Trials and Tribulations, Phoenix's evil ex-girlfriend Dahlia Hawthorne gets off completely scot-free with the murder of her step-sister Valerie; she tricked the defendant into committing suicide so they wouldn't catch her. Karma gets her back big-time when she's hung for murder over another case, and is even tortured with eternal failure after trying to seek revenge from the grave.
Novium: I deleted the big giant section on the variations on Christian theology and the history related to it, and tried to sum up the main point instead. Here's the original text.
- The most fundamental tenet of Christianity is the Gospel (literally, Good News) that Jesus Christ bought "Get Out of Hell Free" cards for all humanity with his death on the Cross. Nothing a person can do in life can erase the bad things that person has done, but that doesn't matter — all trespasses can be forgiven, forgotten, forever. Those who acknowledge God as Sovereign Lord are allowed into the Eternal Paradise Party House, with alcohol and feasts aplenty.
- Hey, shouldn't this fall into Real Life category?
- For some people, the stumbling block is thinking they don't need it. For other people, it's thinking forgiveness — like pardon — is a thing that must be earned or deserved instead of simply offered and accepted. Either way, people have to get over themselves and accept the invitation as the undeserved gift it is.
- Hilter himself could enjoy the never-ending wedding feast and soccer games if he did an honestly humble Heel–Face Turn, admitted he was no good, and asked the Party's Host for the invitation pass. Jesus said that no one will get to Paradise because they deserve it — no one will be able to boast that they were good enough. Only reformed losers get to win.
- Unless it's a different flavor of Christianity, and you have "conditional election", like Calvinism.
- That's unconditional election. As in TULIP- the U is for unconditional. Conditional is Arminianist.
- Also he committed suicide and in many denominations, particularly the Catholics and the Orthodox, that is a cardinal sin, although they are not always entirely sure.
- Unless it's a different flavor of Christianity, and you have "conditional election"
- This is true to a much greater extent with Protestant Christianity than other forms, due to the various Protestant denominations' acceptance of the "faith alone" doctrine. Catholicism at least also views good works as integral to one's right to salvation.
- It must be remembered that Catholicism and Calvinism came after "mere" Christianity itself. Protestants style themselves as returning to the fundamentals, "protesting" the additions of Catholic tradition.
- Unless they really, really wanted to keep it, like the shiny bits and the anti-Semitism.
- This goes back to the very roots of Christianity, and is right there in the Gospels, with the famous story of the Thief on the Cross. (The guy being crucified right next to Jesus who had committed lots of unspecified nasty crimes and never did anything to make up for it but admit to Jesus that he was guilty and ask Jesus to remember him anyway.) He is the only person, in fact, whom Jesus personally assures will go to Paradise after death. This troper thinks it's a very powerful story, and, indeed, the idea of the last-minute unconditional repentance and atonement, morally questionable as some people might find it, is deeply ingrained in our culture and people will always be fans of it.
- Of course, the thief was dying, and thus there was no way he could possibly have done anything to make up for his sins. Arguably, if you're really, truly repentant, you'll be more than willing to prove it with good works.
- 'Faith alone' doctrine is also part of Islam. Denying Allah is the only unforgivable sin.
Neo Yi: Took out the Danny Phantom Sam Manson example, if not because she often does get her comeuppance from her actions or isn't aware she caused them till the next minute (and usually tries to fix it).
Kongming: Took out the Princess Bride example. I guess the troper who added that forgot that the whole Dread Pirate Roberts thing was just a front for mild banditry, and that the various incarnations of the Dread Pirate Roberts weren't actually quite as brutal as their reputation. I mean, there's a reason Westley was still alive, you know?
Austin: I think the Darth Vader example needs to be trimmed. It's mostly made of justifying edits that border on natter, but I'm hesitant to change it myself because some of them make good points.
H. Torrance Griffin: Pulled
- Perhaps the big Karma Houndini is the Fire Nation itself. After 100 years of essentially RAPING the other Nations while having it's people live in peace, what happenes? It gets a new king who leads them into a new golden age of peace. Say WHAT!?!
Chris X: It's been a long time since I watched Candy Candy, and I never got around finishing it. As far as I got into the film, I never see the Complete Monster of a Rich Bitch Eliza (and her brother Neal) gets her comeuppance for making Candy's life horrible because she can... So does she fit into the Karma Houdini, and how? If she didn't escape the hands of karma, how did karma hit her? What's the form of her comeuppance?
Peteman: Would anyone feel bad if I included the Orcs of Warcraft? The only times I find anyone referring to the Orcish atrocities like their acts during the first and second wars, their actions against Cenarias, and until recently their massacres of the Dranei, is as a crutch for excessive Fantastic Racism against them (granted, I don't play World Of Warcraft or read most of the books).
Charred Knight: That would be the equivalent to calling Germans Karma Houdini for World War II, what you are suggesting is that the Alliance commit genocide on the Orcs. Generally speaking the Orcs that existed in the first and second war no longer exist, those that commited the atrocities are either dead, or are The Atoner, such as Saurfang. The Orcs from the first and second war where corrupted by demons, and Grom Hellscream who killed Cenarius died after redeeming himself by killing Mannoroth freeing the orcs of the taint of demons.
Caswin: I'm not a regular viewer of Walker Texas Ranger, but from what I have seen, Walker consistently catches the bad guys and sends them to jail, or ends up killing them if the situation forces him to. What is the entry talking about?
Caswin: Cutting it.
- Pretty much every villain in Walker Texas Ranger, especially if Walker has a personal connection. It doesn't matter if he's a serial murdering cop-killer that will probably break out of jail (possibly even again), he apparently deserves mercy and another run through the revolving door of the justice system. If he killed Walker's parents or fiancé, it's up to God to give justice. Since this usually doesn't apply to the Mooks, it leads to Moral Dissonance.
- It takes three episodes spread across multiple seasons for Walker to finally decide that the psychotic La Rue, who seriously threatened the lives of major characters and killed dozens of people, including cops and a judge, deserves death instead of the prison he has a clear habit of worming out of, but only because he had no other choice.
Rebochan: Took out the Sailor Moon examples because it was about 1/4 examples and 3/4 justifying natter that proved that the examples were not actually good examples at all. It seemed to focus on either A) People just don't like Chibiusa and think she should be punished for existing or B) Villains can be redeemed on this show. That's not a matter of escaping punishment though, especially when the examples from the anime were all people who were corrupted by an outside force that always was irredeemably evil. For example, Professor Tomoe was possessed after he tried to save his daughter's life. It would make no sense to claim that he needed to be "punished" for anything. The daimon that possessed him was killed - in other words, the being responsible for the problem did not escape judgement. The exact opposite of the trope. And as for the Chibiusa thing...no.
—- Orihime: We know you guys hate and loathe Nina and Ougi from Code Geass. But stop being so goddamned biased. Deleted until you guys can leave your rabid and PSYCHOTIC hate of them aside and write something unbiased that doesn't reek of "OPPOSE LULU BABY AND DIE!".
Deleted the entry on Lezard Valeth, as it reeks of Did Not Do The Research, since at the end of the second game his spirit is erased from reality, damning him to eternal oblivion. How is that "getting away with it"?
Rebochan: Took out the Scrapped Princess example, since the character was not actually doing evil (he thought he was doing the right thing) and he killed himself over the guilt. In other words, he did receive the karma coming to him.
Great Pikmin Fan: What happend to the example of Courtney from Total Drama Island? She did more than what she got. So, when does getting "voted" off, and getting hurt by apples and coconuts make up for stealing a hot air balloon, almost killing four people for money, yes killing and tring to hit anyone who disagrees with her getting voted off with a lampost?
Doctor Nemesis: This appears to be a somewhat debatable example, so I've moved the discussion here.
- Shawn Spencer in Psych is a rare protagonist example; whilst not exactly evil, he certainly has a habit of pushing his luck regarding his 'pretend to be a psychic (and even fooling the police)' fraud even further than most people could reasonably expect to go without getting caught, but somehow comes up smelling of roses every time. Not only that, but he's noticeably cocky about it as well. It's often a source of some frustration to his partner Gus.
- This Troper thought that he tried to tell them he wasn't psychic, but everyone else thought it would be easier to explain away his awesome deduction and observation skills by proclaiming his psychic abilities. So he's not fooling everyone, he's just doing what everyone expects him to do... be a psychic. Which is basically him standing around, putting his hands to his head and going "I'm getting a feeling" and other, equally silly things. Any character with half a brain would see through his charade, especially considering his father was an expert detective who taught Shawn all he knows and knows that Shawn is faking his psychic powers, too.
- Besides, Shawn always helps them catch the bad guy, so is he really all that bad?
- In Shawn's first appearance, he attempted to tell the detectives that yes, he really was that good a detective... they refused to believe him.
Freezer: Pulled this:
- Though The Shield ends with Vic Mackey losing everything: his family, his friends, reputation both as a good cop and as a stand-up guy who looks out for his teammates, having ALL of his sins becoming public knowledge via a immunity deal he signs, stuck in a dead-in office job with a supervisor (who he foolishly gave the only known copies of blackmail material that one of the season's big bads were holding over her) who tells him that she'll make his life hell that he can't quit lest he loses his immunity and no hope of keeping after his three year work contract expires), Vic walks away at the end of the series with his gun in his holster and a smile on his face that tells viewers that not only is he unbroken by the events of the finale, but doesn't even care about the destroyed lives he has left in his wake. At least that's what Shawn Ryan has stated, in is post-finale exit interview, as far as the issue of whether or not Vic Mackey would be broken by his final fate.
Is it really a Karma Houdini if you actually catch such a Karmic Smackdown, but you're too much of a Complete Monster to let it bother you?
Cliche: Moved the Real Life section over to the Discussion page on the basis that many of them seem to be examples of Acceptable Targets and this is not the place to be getting all fired up over political controversy. I could just as easily make a case that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is an example of Karma Houdini for the USA, since the fact still remains that despite the constant speeches on the eevils of nuclear weapons, they never got any retribution for being the only nations to actually deploy them, and to this day, many people still think it was a good idea (well, the Real Life section mocked Mao Zedong supporters, so why should the USA be exempt from the same treatment?). (06/08/09)
Cliche: Once again, I really see no reason why we should permit Real Life pages, since it's just asking for political wank. The American culture section is based on ideology and does not elaborate on any factual basis, and the Fidel Castro example just puts him on there with no explanation or regards as to why he is such a controversial figure. (06/29/09)
Master Ghandalf: Removed the example of Chane the Vampire from the Noble Dead series, on account of the series being unfinished. Chane can't be a Karma Houdini because his storyline isn't concluded yet, and he could very well pull a Heel–Face Turn, die, or both before everything is said and done. If at the very end he's still alive and hasn't atoned for his crimes he's a Karma Houdini, but it's rather unfair to mark a villain down here midway through a story.
- Dr. Horrible odesn't count. His crimes consist of A) stealing a couple of gold bars. B) Stealing Wonderflounium. C) attempting to steal a statue) D) Blowing a couple of holes in the roof of a homeless shelter and E) attemtping but then backing out of comiting murder. If anything this is a case of No Good Deed Goes Unpunished.
Johnny E: Funnily enough, pointing a gun at someone and threatening to kill them in front of tens of witnesses is frowned upon by the law, and the "I didn't actually shoot him because he managed to disarm me!" defense is notoriously tricky to get away with.
Caswin: "And He's definitely Not a Villain. Just what every teenage kid wants to be. Someone who can break the rules and have fun, and always gets away with it." ...eh?
Man Without A Body: Removed this picture, because it doesn't illustrate the trope in any way. I'll believe that the character is an example, but if familiarity with the source material is required to understand the picture's relevance, then it shouldn't be the article picture.
Freezer: Re-added the bit about Cavil's malfeasance going mostly unknown. Cavil may have been outed as the main instigator of the Colonial Holocaust, but IIRC, no ever explains why outside of the flashback to Ellen Tigh's resurrection. Ellen knows the full story and Anders might have remembered it when his memories returned. But we never find out if Ellen told the full story to anyone else (though it's plausible Saul and Galen knew after the final mind meld).
Caswin: I think someone in the Ferris Bueller entry is missing the point of Most Definitely Not a Villain. And over-generalizing about what every teenager wants to be, for that matter. In fact... the statement is categorically wrong and biased, and the entry has a strange definition of what "makes it okay" when Ferris causes trouble. Cutting it.
- This troper disagrees, saying that people only got into trouble when they tried to interfere with his exploits, which harmed nobody. He never actually tries to pin anything on anybody. In fact he does everything in his considerable power to try and ensure that nobody gets into trouble. It is only other people's own attempts to visit him with karma that cause trouble. True, the car DOES get wrecked, but that turns out to be a moment of truth for the other character, which makes it okay. And He's definitely Not a Villain. Just what every teenage kid wants to be. Someone who can break the rules and have fun, and always gets away with it. And yes, Parker Lewis is similar, except that he always escapes punishment through VERY clever planning.
Chevalier Malfait: Deleted the following from the entry on Judaism in "Religion":
<<Modern Kabbahlism, probably in order to avert this, has an elaborate caveat: it's possible to Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence by persecuting the Jews, since it's written into the laws of the universe that Jews are the Butt-Monkey race. However, this is a Dangerous Forbidden Technique, and if you fail at it your soul is annihilated. Therefore, while many of history's greatest monsters went to Heaven, the worst enemies of Judaism are Deader than Dead.>>
Reason: As a Master of Arts in Jewish Thought from Brandeis University, with a specialization in Kabbalah and Hasidism, I have never encountered anything remotely resembling this (rather twisted) belief. I'll give the contributor the benefit of the doubt, in that perhaps by "Modern Kabbahlism" (sic) he or she meant the Kabbalah Center, (the one Madonna belongs to), and was presumably unaware that it is so notorious for distorting and misrepresenting traditional kabbalistic teachings that no Jewish denomination, from ultra-Orthodox to Reform, recognizes it as a legitimate offshoot of the tradition.
