This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Janitor: Arilou! You deleted a lot of discussion. I put it back. Watch that delete key, sistah.
Morgan Wick: I restored the formatting by hitting "Show changes to markup" on the history button.
Arilou: I can give a somewhat historical-ish reason for dukes being good (apart from the "War leader" aspect.) A Duke is a major noble (higher up in the hierarchy than a count or baron) as such the likelyhood of the duke actually walking around oppressing you personally is small. Thus he gets the benefit of the doubt and it is just his henchmen who are evil. (Same "Benefit-of-the-doubt" applied to kings btw.)
Red Shoe: Is it just me, or is there some sort of pattern of there being an exception to this rule for dukes? Maybe there just aren't enough examples for a pattern to emerge, but I can't offhand think of any evil dukes. On the other hand:
- Duke Leto Atreides
- Duke Nukem
- Duke Orsino (Shakespeare, Twelth Night)
- The Duke (John Wayne)
- Duke (GI Joe)
- The Dukes of Hazzard
- The Dukes simply have Duke as their last name........... They aren't real Dukes and Dutchesses.
Seven Seals: "I know this is f**ked up, but Rage... He can't be king anymore. Dudes! He's encroaching on my decrees! Seriously, let's make him a duke. A kickass duke. Or leader formerly known as king."
"Duke" does seem to bring the cool if you must have an aristocratic title. On the other hand, I would point out that of the dukes you list, only two are actual nobles. The others just like the sound of it. Duke, duke, duke, duke of Earl...
Red Shoe: This is true, but I think in all of those cases, they're intentionally trying to evoke the association, which seems to indicate that the connotation of "Duke == Good" existed beforehand.
Andyroid: There's also Sam Vimes from Discworld, who was made a knight in Men At Arms and Duke of Ankh after the events of Jingo, but remained the crusty, bitter, cynical Jerk with a Heart of Gold the fans knew and loved. If anything, his rise into high society only made him hate aristocrats (now his fellow aristocrats) even more.
Jordan: Would the Count of Monte Cristo be worth putting under the list of Counts- he is dark and anti-heroic, but of course it's a fake title and I don't know if Dumas intended any association with the title itself. Also, do you think there's any rule that Earls are twits?- I was thinking of the Earl of Emsworth from P.G. Wodehouse's books.
Robert: In the same books, the Earl of Ickenham (aka Uncle Fred) is remarkably cunning, and the Duke of Dunstable is a bad-tempered nuisance. Idiot Aristocrat is a fairly common trope, and the one Wodehouse usually used, but when he had multiple aristocrats in one book he usually gave them distinct personalities.
In Pratchett's Wyrd Sisters, it's Duke Felmet who kills the old King.
J Random User: I think the concept of Dukes being good people may relate to The Good Captain—Duke is a title given to war leaders.
Ununnilium: None of those three were actual dukes, see.
Scrounge: Do kings and princes could here? It's a moot point to me, since I can't think of any, but I'm surious about what titles other than Baron, Duke, and Count are key to this trope. "Lord" seems to be a pretty good example, plus it implies delusions of godhood.
What I'd really like to see, though, is an evil guy with the title of an elected official, like Congressman Chaos or something.
Seven Seals: Or Senator Sinister? Hm. Senator Palpatine was evil, but he called himself Emperor when he became a card-carrying villain.
Plenty of seedy senators and congressmen in fiction, but they're usually corrupt aides to the Big Bad or Knight Templars rather than outright evil (if they're Knight Templars, they're usually Strawman Politicians.
"Lord" is rarely used as a proper title, but as a style for people with a title. "Dark Lord" being the big exception in fiction, of course. People who insist on being addressed as "lord" without being actual aristocrats are usually evil (since narcissism is rarely a trait of the good guys).
Kings and princes don't really belong, as royalty is another chapter altogether. Kings and queens are about evenly divided between good and evil, while princes and princesses tend to be either heroes or victims or petty villains (in order of likely occurrence).
HeartBurn Kid: Senator Kelly from X-Men was evil, but he's the only one I can think of. Does he count?
Seven Seals: I'd argue Kelly was more a Well-Intentioned Extremist. He wasn't evil in the "bwa-ha-ha" sense, he just thought all mutants were inherently dangerous and should be removed from society (by detaining them, and killing them should they resist). He was an antagonist and a "bad guy" in the context of the story, but "evil" may be taking it too far.
Ununnilium: Though he was almost constantly called "Senator Kelly", in the manner of this trope. But yes, not to mention that the comics version did a Heel–Face Turn before being assassinated for it, and the movie version turned sympathetic just before the end.
MKH 90; This troper wonders if one certain Marquis de Sade would count as a real life example. I don't know much about said person's works or thoughts, but since the word 'sadism' is derived from him, I presume he did something disturbing during his lifetime...
Cheat-master30: I'm just going to add another category here, simply because I don't want to clutter up the individual ones for the series that have multiple kinds of evil aristocrats (such as the Mario series having like, 10 evil kings, 2 evil queens and 3 counts...)
Ross N: Now, don't get us wrong: Aristocracy is a pretty bad idea, historically. There are good reasons why most nations on earth deposed of their monarchs as soon as they had a meaningful chance - centuries of war and famine because of the ambitions of one despotic ruler or another speak for themselves. Many examples for this trope go actively beyond that and/or show no political awareness, however.
I cut all of this out because it has nothing to do with the trope, is an enormously simplistic view of history and is very close to Flame Bait - some of us happen to be monarchists thank you very much.
