This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Tanto: I've got kind of an idea for this entry...I'll get to it once I get back from class.
Later: There we go.
Bob: Hmm, very interesting. Since this was actually one of the first fantasy series I read I can fully understand and agree with everything you said (wrote) here.
I'm still on a break from tvtropes, commenting doesn't count any more than Daniel-San's kick to the face.
Yo Adrian: Very, very fond memories of this series. Ditto to "this was my first fantasy series". Still one of my favorites, actually.
Tanto: Mine too, despite the somewhat snarky tone of the entry. The Dreamers aside, I'm a big Eddings fan, despite his derivative nature.
Roland: Me too. I loved the Elenium especially, but the Belgariad and Mallorean have a lot of fond memories for me. Hm, maybe I should go reread it...
Arakhor: I have all nineteen of David & Leigh Eddings' Belgariad/Malloreon/Elenium/Tamuli books and the similarities between the two worlds were blatant, even to a younger reader who automatically suspended his disbelief. Then again, Eddings comments on this in The Rivan Codex.
Fighteer: Some major updates. Comments on specific trope alterations below.
- Badass Army: The legions of Tolnedra are not this trope. They're mercenary soldiers who are frequently underpaid — their fearsome reputation is more of an Informed Attribute. The Algars, on the other hand, satisfy the trope quite handily.
- Rogue 7: The Legions most definitely aren't mercenaries. They're paid, yes, but so is the U.S. Army. They're highly trained professional soldiers adept at teamwork and strategy, with well-trained commanders. They're without doubt the most professional army in the 'verse.
- Okay, I take back the mercenaries part. However, we see very little of them actually fighting, and a lot of them being greedy, which supports the Informed Attribute part. I'll put this back with the caveat.
- Even Evil Has Standards: Porenn's scheme to manipulate her spies might qualify as a Magnificent Bastard moment, but neither she nor the spies are evil.
- Physical God: Cleaned up the argument in the main page.
Antigone2: Changed the "Anything That Moves" entry to "Really Gets Around". ATM specifically states that it's for bisexual characters only, and I don't see anything in the books to indicate that either Salmissra or Thull women are bi. In fact, it's pretty sure the Thulls are hetero, since you don't get preggers from lesbian sex.
Tyoria:: Pawn of Prophecy paperback page 184:
Pretty sure the implication here is prostitution — really, all that scene needed was a "she's no lady!" but I guess he was saving that joke for the next book.
Fighteer: There's no time frame mentioned. It could have happened before he got married. There's no indication that Barak has been anything but faithful to Merel since.
Tyoria: I kind of doubt it. What would be the point? And it's not like he'd be the only Eddings protagonist to stray. (I'm not thinking of Belgarath, since he didn't know Poledra was even alive, but Kurik from the Elenium. And Kurik had a happy marriage. Oh yeah plus what's-her-name, Empress Elysoun.) But it's not something I want to fight over, since my point was less "Barak is a dick" than "I'm not entirely comfortable with the subtext here."
On the subject of Barak and Merel's relationship I took the liberty of chopping the party political broadcast from the feminist party under 'Unfortunate Implications' out on the grounds that it attached somewhat sinister implications to their arranged marriage (but nobody elses - it being a common theme in the series) and seemed to assume that Merel's interpretation of Barack's homecoming was literally true despite the lack of prima facie evidence. Barack was consistently portrayed as being thoughtless and impulsive - but not malicious. It would be an odd breach of character to make him a rapist.
Tyoria: I don't speak for feminists. I don't speak for anyone but myself. I certainly wouldn't mind discussing this issue, or possibly having the entry modified, but I don't believe you have authority to dictate content here. You're also attributing to me an agenda here that I don't really hold — yeah, I'm politically opinionated and all, but I think Eddings was quite admirably progressive for a member of his generation. Only in recent decades have we even had a concept of "spousal rape". How could he rape her? She was his wife. You can't rape your wife. Much less commit a crime by doing so. For a very, very long time, it was both culturally and legally acceptable. We also have the issue that the Chereks are clearly identified as the most conservative, patriarchal Alorns, making them the most likely to demonstrate this sort of thing, and that's a nuance Eddings was well aware of too. I'm sure it wasn't Barak holding Merel down as she kicked and screamed, but she did not want to have sex with him, she made it perfectly damn clear and there's no room for misinterpretation in Barak's response to it either.
Now, I'm sorry if I've been rude. I knew, actually, it could have been phrased better when I put it in, but I was kind of hoping the people here would be able to help me put it more diplomatically. I did try to tone it down some already.
Apolloin No offence taken, and glad to discuss it here. (With a name and everything!) Sorry if I overstepped my bounds, but I'm a new editor and I thought that this was how peer editing worked - after all, it wasn't *really* lost and could be restored if the collective thought it right.
My issue is not with the concept that Barak misbehaved, his response was essentially "It's a fair cop, guv", it was the emphasis of their situation. The entire series is essentially a catalog of arranged/enforced marriages - Ce'Nedra tries to escape from hers much harder than Merel does. If you wanted to make Ce'nedra's situation Worse Than It Sounds then you could easily say that not only was her marriage arranged but that she was brainwashed into accepting it by the gods! Then there's the whole issue of the Angarak slavery and harem marriages. The Mimbrate marriages of nubile young women to doddering old nobles. The Dryad's do nothing BUT rape and murder! And so on. I just felt that singling out Barak was pretty unjustified. It might have given you the heebies, but don't you feel it's rather more opinion than analysis? Does the Belgariad have an 'It bugs me' page?
As for the issue of Rape - you make a good point that his behaviour really doesn't signify as that given the societal context. Even if it does, it is stated a number of times that Merel loves nothing more than jumping out to get her feelings hurt and then berating Barak for decades with his indiscretions. Does the definition of rape hang in the balance between reluctance and refusal? It's a crime that arouses strong emotion and ideally there are no grey areas - certainly Merel doesn't act as if Barak has traumatised her given the forgiveness that you mention. Although that could be the Gods brainwashing HER too?
Defending Barak's behaviour leaves me feeling uncomfortable about it too. There's no doubt that he did something wrong - but did he do something as wrong as your entry painted? Does it deserve to be called rape given what's happening in even the so-called 'good' nations?
Would be happy to work towards an edited entry.
Fighteer: This may be better listed under Values Dissonance, since as you pointed out, it's an accepted part of the culture in which the characters operate.
Edit: I just tried something. Let me know what you think.
Tyoria: Thank you for the courteous reply, Apolloin, I had not been certain that you were not objecting to my content wholesale rather than taking issue with its focus and tone, which is quite reasonable — as I said, I knew it could have been put better in the first place.
When we're talking about values dissonance here (to encompass Fighteer in this as well) there's more than one factor. There's "what is accepted culturally" and "what SHOULD be accepted, culturally." The Murgos are presented as oppressive in their treatment of women, where the Nadraks are merely unconventional. (I'm not entirely sure what to make of the Nadraks, actually, but they're presented that way.) The Arends are borderline — they are not without their positive traits but there are some serious problems going on there too. The dryads occupy the same space, they are sympathetic but also clearly predatory. Belgarath called his situation degrading but he also didn't seem to have suffered any lasting trauma from it. Actually now that you bring it up I think that IS a mild example of the "Rape is okay when it is female on male" trope. Maybe not "okay", but something quite less than "reprehensible." Salmissra's treatment of Garion, on the other hand, seemed pretty clearly unacceptable.
Now there is an element of divine influence in absolutely everything that goes on, but my reason for singling Barak and Merel out in this is that for most couples that are shown in a positive light, the only "coercion" is clearly external, and operating on both parties simultaneously. I never had the impression that Garion had any more control over either his attraction OR his marriage to Ce'Nedra than she herself did to him. Her objection to it was rooted in the politics that had gone into the treaty in the first place, and her wounded pride in the idea of him "outranking" her. Plus then Garion actually asked outright if she didn't want to marry him and it was apparent that she did, in SPITE of the treaty, and in order to reach an accommodation with her he made her his co-ruler. With Barak, though, what we're told is that he spent a lot of time wanting her and unable to get her, until he obtained nobility and her family thought the match sounded like a good idea, and she objected but it didn't do her any good. Silk sardonically comments that it's good to see his steadfastness rewarded — I don't get here that Barak had no say in this, or that he could have been ignorant of her feelings on the matter. But even if he didn't directly reach an accommodation with Merel's father or guardian, the implication would STILL bother me because from Merel's side of the story it's still an unwilling partnership, and the night in question was a sexual encounter she did not desire — which is then turned around into something beautiful, Rape Is Love style. It's presented as a positive thing. I don't hold Barak to be a bad person for holding to the mores that his society preaches and I can even feel sorry for him — for example, it seemed like he was really ashamed about having visited "the green-eyed woman," which would mean that he's feeling guilty over having consensual sex outside of a loveless marriage and that's just heartbreakingly sad to me. But I don't like it that this is what heals things, and it's rather an insult to injury that this is their THIRD child, but the first boy.
Fighteer, I wouldn't go as far as you, actually. This is the only couple that just really bugged me, where I'd say there are others that I liked or found outright positive. The whole Polgara/Durnik thing where they're made equals because he's going to be a kickass immortal sorcerer TOO, that's just awesome.
I'm starting to feel bad about making such an issue over this, actually, would either of you mind if I just took it out and sat on it for a while? This is quite the little essay I have here, and at that length I would say the Just Bugs Me page might be more appropriate, unless I can think of some way to retain the essential elements while also remaining fair and succinct.
Fighteer: This is definitely being overthought, yes, and JBM is indeed the proper place to discuss it.
Tyoria: I didn't say it was being "overthought." I'm not conceding anything here. I'm saying it's getting overblown.
Apolloin: Look at this whole site - the Internet IS Serious Business. ;) Yup, I'm happy to leave it in your hands Tyoria. I don't disagree that Barak was a bad lad and my speechifying as a rape apologist above left a nasty taste in my mouth. I would leave you with a parting disagreement over the Nadrak thing. When the slave is one of the Belgariad's Cute Bruiser characters then it's unconventional. I would imagine that the REGULAR version of the relationship - a 90 pound girl versus a 300 pound wilderness survival expert is a bit more tragic.
