This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Ununnilium: The navigation thing at the bottom doesn't seem to be working.
Lol,I edited the "Limit" page about Kingdom Hearts. It is so FUCKING H Ug E!!!!!
BT The P: The index page needs to have a single bulleted list in order for it to function. The only other entry is off in a block by itself. Organizing it by genre breaks the navigation. Notice that the entries in the Series section is not divided thus.
Ununnilium: Hm, I see.
Crapface: It should have Limit Breaks on it.
Yogi: Wait wha? Do we have more of this "Poor Orginization XIII" crap turning up now? The same group that unleashed the Heartless to ravage multiple Universes? They're evil, deal with it.
Harpie Siren: Thank you, Yogi. I mean, I realize that they're Draco in Leather Pants... but the fact that they were Nobodies had nothing to do with they're fate. It was the fact that they were messing with Sora's friends. I repeat: IT WAS THE FACT THAT THEY WERE MESSING WITH SORA'S FRIENDS! It's Personal now.
Yogi: A few more things. I know that this isn't really Wikipedia standards, but "Kingdom Hearts II stomps all over the beautifully constructed themes of its predecessor" doesn't even meet Fox News' standards for Fair and Balanced. Changing this and other comments to more neutural terminology. Also, Org. XIII is evil.
Redkun: The first game had a beautifully constructed story, the main theme being that Riku was willing to commit evil in order to do what he believed to be right, gained immense power from it, but then became consumed by that same evil. Darkness was "evil", good was "light", hearts represented a person's emotions... every metaphor was as clear as day. Now skip forward to KHII: suddenly, it's okay to use evil for good ends as long as you don't go crazy? (A Family-Unfriendly Aesop if I ever saw one) Nobodies are beings without hearts, yet some of which clearly show emotions? The centre of darkness is no longer a writhing mass of chaos but a tranquil moonlit beach? Seriously, what the hell? You can talk about "blurring the lines" all you like but the fact is that the themes in Kingdom Hearts were perfect. This is a false Growing the Beard if I ever saw one.
Also, does your "Poor Organisation XIII" line extend to Roxas (and to a lesser extent, Namine), who is treated in exactly the same way as every other member of the Organisation yet who we're clearly meant to feel sympathy for? I would accept your argument if we weren't made to spend the first five hours of the game feeling sorry for the inevitable fate of a Nobody. Yes, I accept the fact that the Organisation are evil but the way that every single "good" character treats them as mere faceless monsters despite all evidence to the contrary is truly disturbing to me— hence the Family-Unfriendly Aesop.
Yogi: My point is that Nobodies are treated in the same manner as Heartless, Computer Programs, Sentient Animals, Zombie Pirates, and Humans. For any of them, Sora will be friends with those that help him (he was willing to call a truce with what he thought was Xehonart's Heartless) but if they start doing evil things, they become intimate with the business end of a Keyblade. Hence the Nobodies are not treated any differently than any of the other beings that Sora comes across.
As for Roxas, there appears to be two separate personalities. There's the original Organization XIII Roxas who was helping with Xemnas' plan. He was captured and mindwiped into Twilight Town Roxas, who we play for the first section. Sora himself only interacts with Org. XIII Roxas, and that was during a semi-dream sequence when Roxas was trying to kill him so of course he fights back. Did he deserve to be captured and mindwiped? We don't really know, since we're not sure on how evil he was and his reasons for leaving Org. XIII. On the other hand, Twilight Town Roxas and Namine are both pretty innocent and didn't really deserve what they got. However, I think that we're supposed to think that Darkness in Zero is a real bastard who believes in ends justifying the means.
So, did Roxas deserve what he got? Probably not. Did the rest of Organization XIII deserve what THEY got? Most certainly yes. They don't deserve any more sympathy than Malificent, Ursula, Barbossa, Shan Yu, Scar, MCP, or any of the other sentient beings that decided attacking Sora was a pretty good idea.
Sunder the Gold: I agree with Redkun's first paragraph. The first game had a solid, clear setup, and the two following games twisted it to hell. Aside from that, Sora never attacked or killed Namine, and only defended himself from Roxas. Anyone Sora ever fought ASKED for it.
As for Di Z — yeah, he's an asshole with the wrong idea. However, I don't think Roxas or Namine really lost their individuality. Roxas was Sora without Sora's "heart," or the memories and experiences that made them distinct from each other — but he was still Sora. They're not so much clones as two halves of the same person, each of them with different memories. It's actually in their better interest to merge again to become a complete human being with both sets of life experience integrated. Same thing with Kairi and Namine.
This, of course, HAS to ignore the fact that Sora and Kairi somehow have physical bodies before reintegrating with their Nobodies, and that Roxas and Namine apparently have feelings despite not having Hearts.
That tomfoolery is, of course, the entire problem with the concept of Nobodies. We were better off when it was (reasonably) assumed that the Darkness absorbed your body as well as your Heart when you became a Heartless, and that your Heart was basically the same thing as your soul.
fleb: Yeahh, so in summary: Kingdom Hearts mythology is a headache-inducing bitch and we should all take a heavy dose of MST3K Mantra. I've given up figuring out what any of its vague vocabulary really means after three whole games chock full of it.
Sunder The Gold: Yup. But — and I hope I'm not annoying — but the word you're looking for isn't mythology, but "cosmology" — how the universe works.
fleb: Ah. Anyway, just a note for any newcomers who see this page: this'd really go under It just bugs me or W.M.G. more than here.
Redkun: "Dark Is Not Evil (Only in Chain of Memories and a beach in KHII.)" Can I point out that aforementioned peaceful beach is explicitly named as being the World of Darkness? Darkness is just a cheap teleportation system in II.
fleb: I removed The Dark Side because it doesn't show up at all. The only downside to the darkness is it might eat your heart, it doesn't fuel Jumping Off the Slippery Slope.
Harpie Siren: That's one hell of a downside!
Harpie Siren: Humans have been killed in this series, they're names were Shan-Yu and Hector Barbossa. Also, the number of scenes Axel showed up in dosen't have any bearing on how he was handeled as a character. Mickey dosen't have that much more screentime, of course Mickey spends it being a Badass Longcoat...
Insanity Prelude: Didn't Clayton die too?
Anon Person: For that matter, Jafar WAS human before he became a genie and he dies in KH 2.
fleb: Shan-Yu and Clayton got Karmic Death, though in different ways. Jafar, as you said, became a genie, ceasing to look human and making him fair game. Barbossa's the only person who gets killed as a human by a hero. Albeit by a movie-native and not any of the OC's.
Wascally Wabbit: [Sigh] pulled out this:
- Family-Unfriendly Aesop Roxas should just give up his right to exist as an independent person Because Destiny Says So
ccoa: Wait, what? Last I checked, there's nothing beyond DiZ's say-so that suggests that Sora needed Roxas at all. There's a lot of fan speculation about it, but nothing in the canon.
tsukinofaerii: Pulled Goofy as an example of Like You Would Really Do It. He's never in life-threatening danger (any moreso than the rest of the playable characters, at least), so the trope doesn't really apply.
fleb: Except obviously Gameplay and Story Segregation is at work, since based on everyone's extreme reactions, they're all convinced he's dead. Definitely an example.
fleb: Cutting the Canon Sue section, again. Common Mary Sue Traits don't make a Mary Sue. Sora's not one, [and though no one mentioned her yet, neither is Namine], and Number Fourteen probably isn't going to be one either.
Usagi: Why does everyone think not liking female characters = Fan Dumb? I probably still wouldn't like Kairi even if I wasn't a Yaoi Fangirl. :| I just don't fine her likable.
Anon Person: If you don't like her, that's fine. I don't what sin she commits that makes her dislikeable, but whatever floats your boat. It's when BASHING starts, that Fan Dumb is most definitely in play.
ccoa: Chain of Memories does not really justify the Bag of Spilling that occurs between I and II. It only explains why they lost their skills between I and CoM. Once Namine restored everyone's memories up to the point just before they entered Castle Oblivion, they really should have gotten all their abilities from I back while losing all their abilities from CoM.
fleb: If you include the prologue of KH 2 it can sorta make sense. They resorted to using Roxas to get all the memories back faster; they were in a big rush to just get Sora back in action. So the process could be incomplete.
Enlong: Also, Marluxia removed all their abilities at the same time that he started taking their memories. The game never said that Namine would restore his abilities.
fleb: About the Namine/Sora...
- Sora did get a very specific case of Laser-Guided Amnesia to help explain that, though.
KrisMahai: Should Axel dying still be spoiler tagged? Most people know about it, and the game came out four years ago, but I wasn't sure if I should remove the spoiler tags. Ditto for Xemnas being Ansem's first apprentice. I spoilered them when I wrote them, but do they need them?
KrisMahai: Also, for the love of God, someone please edit that gigantic spoilered paragraph on the first page under The Chris Carter Effect. It's way too big for the main page, there's no point in putting spoiler tags over the entire thing, and it flat out does not need to be there. I'm a new Troper, so I'm not exactly sure what to do with it, but I'm pretty sure you do not put things like that on the Main Page.
fleb: It *was* ridiculously long, ruined the flow of the page, assumes way too much. and is pretty natter-y. Cut and pasted here.
- Odd, it doesn't seem too hard if you think of it this way. The heart is an emotive center of a being, holding the light and darkness of a being. Therefore, a Pureblood Heartless is created from the dark emotions of hate and annihilation that overwhelm the light and take form. The heart also houses memories which are locked away if the heart becomes a heartless. Nobodies are the manifestation of the leftover body, which is form, and an exceptionally strong soul, which is life. Depending on the strength of the soul, the Nobody can access the memories locked in the heart, which lets them pretend to have emotions like they once did. That's why the XIII seems to have real emotions. Roxas and Naminé are Nobodies who have regained their hearts, giving them emotions and unique attributes among Nobodies: Roxas can wield the Keyblade and the power of light, and Naminé can rewrite memory. The only thing that confuses me is how Emblem Heartless are created. Perhaps the computer digitally replicates dark emotions? Now, some real questions would be why Axel had to do a Heroic Sacrifice to defeat enemies that Sora could easily beat after the cutscene, and how that message in a bottle got to the Dark Realms. And how do the keychains on the keyblades work anyways?
Cut Natter:
- Pair the Spares: Roxas and Namine have the barebones skeletal structure of an alleged romance going on, to align with their lookalikes Sora and Kairi, and presumably completely erase the Namine/Sora thing from Chain of Memories without comment.
- Er many fans would beg to differ. There's no hint of Roxas/Namine in the actual game unless you include that one 'goodbye' scene with them/Sora and Kairi and even then it feels like a strong frendship. Doubled since Roxas and Sora are now debatably not the same person (see Birth by Sleep).
More Natter:
- Given that Kairi/Namine fall into the category of usless Damsel in Distress are you really that surprised alot of female gamers don't like them? Lets face it the only OC female that really does anything (Larxene) is a henious bitch, and good chances are Xion will probably fall the same way. Squeenix has generic female stereotypes that aren't exactly role model material, this crap is unavoidable till they stop it.
- Anon: Yeah, they're useless damsels in distress. Kairi saving Sora from life as a Heartless, giving him an inspirational good luck charm, sparing Sora from fighting off a shitload of Heartless by fighting them herself along with Riku, writing a letter that gave Sora's heart hope and allowed him and Riku to escape from fading away into the darkness; and Namine fixing the damage she was forced to do to Sora, helping Roxas out, freeing Kairi and Pluto from Saix's imprisonment, and allowing everyone to escape the collapsing Alter of Naught...I must have imagined all of that!
- Viper Sean: People consider Kairi and Namine useless because they don't fight (barring that one time). Not saying that's a good reason, but that's what it basically boils down to.
- Given that Kairi/Namine fall into the category of usless Damsel in Distress are you really that surprised alot of female gamers don't like them? Lets face it the only OC female that really does anything (Larxene) is a henious bitch, and good chances are Xion will probably fall the same way. Squeenix has generic female stereotypes that aren't exactly role model material, this crap is unavoidable till they stop it.
Harpie Siren: So. It turns out that the Mooks in Birth By Sleep aren't called Unbirths, they're called Unversed
Insanity Prelude: What original death scene? I knew Axel was originally supposed to die earlier but I never heard of the old version being leaked.
Dmysta3000: Does anyone else think that we should make separate pages for '358/2 Days, Chain of Memories, and Birth by Sleep? Because this pages is getting kinda long.
rbx5: I cannot believe it took this long for someone to add Hey Its That Voice considering the number of fairly big names they got for these games; admittedly, I'm to busy/lazy to fill in the considerable cast myself, so all help is appreciated.
Insanity Prelude: Felt this was more suited to the discussion page or forums:
- Missed Moment of Awesome: It depends on who you ask, of course, but This Troper thinks that Manhattan would make a perfect area to explore in a KH installment. Gargoyles (already steeped in magic and weird technology), Oliver And Company, and Square could even make an excuse to give Parasite Eve star Aya Brea a cameo appearance.
Stranger: Plus the fact that it's ridiculous to begin with. Gargoyles is a Disney TV show only known by a few die-hard fans and casual viewers. Kingdom Hearts is specifically about playing in worlds based on well-known Disney movies. Though I can't for the life of me imagine Oliver And Company carrying an entire level. And as for Aya Brea; so far it's been Final Fantasy characters only in the guest roles.
{{takashi.0}}: What the fuck was with the chocolate bananas shit? Were we invaded by trolls or something?
