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Well, I can certainly sympathise with the latter attitude, although not with Mr. Ramsoomair's apparent level of rage regarding the subject.

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He enjoys video games enough to make a webcomic about them. Clearly he's got quite an emotional investment in the medium.

Again with the data mining, dear Aunt?

That doesn't excuse him for being a dick about it. :/

Well, it is frustrating if you're a fan of older games. The animosity is irrational and unpleasant, but it's not difficult to see where it originates.

As with so many things, I think it boils down to nerds versus mainstream. Mr. Ramsoomair appears to be in the "nerds" corner, where you'll find "old school" gamers. He's lashing out at what he perceives to be an undeserving mainstream hijacking the culture he holds dear.

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So basically, It's Popular, Now YOU Suck?

It's Popular, Now They Don't Make Them Like They Used To And It Pisses Me.

edited 10th Sep '09 6:53:00 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

Somehow, that seems even more whiny to me.

Ugh, I don't really want to go into detail on this, because Casual vs Hardcore is not a popular topic, but try to imagine it from the perspective of the "hardcore" crowd.

For years, they  ^*

were the main target audience of video games. They were a crowd of nerds, basically, and frequently the subject of derision or misunderstanding by the mainstream, as with any nerd subculture. I imagine many people around here can appreciate how irritating that can be.

This crowd of "nerds" strongly resembled a cult fanbase in many respects, in that they were a relatively small but devoted audience. It was therefore in the best interest of the industry to create games which appealed to that culture, which meant a strong emphasis on challenge, longevity and replayability, a tolerance for poor graphics in an otherwise enjoyable game, and a healthy dollop of 1980s nostalgia, as well as the usual nerd fascinations (fantasy, science fiction, ridiculously complex stats, etc.), since this is what appealed to the vast majority of gamers at that time.

Nowadays, video games have gained acceptance from a wider audience - the so-called "casual" crowd - and the old crowd of "hardcore" gamers are suddenly in the minority. While there are now many, many games being produced, new games that appeal to those hardcore gamers are few and far between.

With all that in mind, is it any wonder that they're bitter that the industry appears now to have rejected them in favour of the very people who treated them with hostility and jeering for almost 20 years?

I'm not saying it justifies a vitriolic reaction, and hardcore gamers are often utter jerks about it, but it really isn't hard to see why people are upset.

edited 10th Sep '09 7:36:28 AM by BobbyG

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Well, I can certainly understand why they feel that way. Personally though, I've been an avid gamer since I was a kid, but I'm rather happy about the demographic change. It might be a cliche, but "The More, The Merrier", right?

In any case, I still can't get over the fact that Scott Ramsooowhateverhisnameis basically used his webcomic (which I still do enjoy, BTW) as a soapbox in a very petty (IMO) manner. It didn't help that I visited the forums after reading it, and found that most of the people there agreed with him...and quickly shot down anyone expressing the opposite opinion. WTH?

^^that and ^that.

When I read that comic, I was just nonplussed. I didn't see it as particularly controversial, because I assumed, perhaps erroneously, that the comic's fans would share his view. It just seemed like an unfunny rant.

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I kind of thought it was a parody or something of that nature at first.

Look, I've been a gamer since I was a kid in the 80s. And you know what? Nerdy core gamers have never been the target audience. Never, never.

The idea that they used to be and are being "scorned" is a myth. Not since the first Pong table was set up in a bar, not since Donkey Kong had a Saturday Morning Cartoon Show, not since The Wizard, not since Madden, not since Solitaire, not since Minesweeper, not since Tetris, not since The Sims, not since...I could go on, but I think the point is made. It is purely the same whiny self-victimization that pervades all fandoms when they realize their hobby is not an exclusive club and might have mainstream appeal.

And as someone that *is* a nerdy niche gamer, I'd love to know where this "drought" of core game is. Because quite frankly, I have bought so many games in the last year that I physically cannot play them all and have a massive backlog of games - and that's just the ones I bought. There's an insane amount of so-called "core" games that I haven't bought due to this backlog. If the "core" aren't getting any games, it's because their idea of "core" game is as fictional as the myth of the reliable "core" demographic that supports the industry.

edited 10th Sep '09 10:06:57 AM by Rebochan

Tetris and the Donkey Kong and Super Mario Bros 3 games appealed to the hardcore fans, whether intentionally or not.

Oh dear, not this again.

edited 10th Sep '09 10:08:09 AM by BobbyG

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So does Rock Band, Professor Layton, Brain Age, Animal Crossing (god, remember when that used to be considered a "niche" title?), Wii Sports, Wii Play, and yes, even Wii Fit to people that aren't allergic to it outselling Halo 3 (and I'm sure Microsoft cries themselves to sleep over it's massive failure of...*sob* SIX MILLION COPIES SOLD!).

And I purposely invoked Madden because before it was trendy to cry about Wii Fit destroying the universe, it was Madden. Now Madden is so passe.

It's a wonder that they consider themselves abandoned, yes. The market's expanded, but many of its segments give every indication of being willing to accommodate nerdy interests (whatever that means): consider the recent popularity of Bioshock and Fallout 3, complex games by any measure.

Granted, a few genres seem to have fallen by the wayside — adventure gamers and 4X fans have every right to be bitter, for example. And many of the genres that have sprung up in their wake — the current generation of rhythm games, Wii Sports, etc. — are geared toward more casual gameplay. But that doesn't indicate that an entire market segment has been left behind; the market's always evolved rapidly and tended to drop genres easily. What was the last worthwhile forced-scrolling shooter by a major publisher? Ikaruga? What was the last one before that?

On the other hand, here's a secret: much of the mass appeal of current-gen games comes not from dumbing down but from good design. World Of Warcraft is a deeper game in many ways than Everquest was, but its appeal is much broader because it minimizes the latter's boredom, repetition, and periods of fruitless isolation. Nerds are probably more willing to jump through hoops than the general population, but that does not say anything good about the "hardcore" subculture or the games they're holding up as lost bastions of perfection.

(Disclaimer: I'm a part owner and lead designer of an old-school text RPG — and I gear it toward people who have lives and jobs.)

edited 10th Sep '09 4:14:46 PM by Nornagest

I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.

Is it just me or does this keep happening to you, Bobby? *patpats him on the back*

Well, I'll concede that there's a fallacy there, because there are plenty of nerdy games around, but I believe most "hardcore" gamers fail to notice this because they're the wrong kind of nerdy. Fallout 3 isn't a hardcore game, any more than Animal Crossing and Wii Sports are hardcore games. Neither, incidentally, is Halo 3, unless you're using the "Darker and Edgier, Serious Business" definition of hardcore (see my post at the bottom of the previous page).

However, Fallout 3 is certainly a nerdy game. It's just that most self-proclaimed hardcore gamers have a kind of us-vs-them attitude that sees "Casual Gamers" as one big mainstream block.

Personally, I like a number of non-hardcore games, but they are undoubtedly a different experience. I don't personally believe that every casual game is designed for mainstream kids, or that such people somehow don't deserve video games. I'm just saying that Scott Ramsoomair's attitude isn't all that hard to sympathise with, and I was surprised that so many people reacted so negatively to what I thought was just a rather poor individual comic strip.

Heh, cheers Faw. Every time I start typing, I seem to put my foot in it of late.

edited 10th Sep '09 12:11:51 PM by BobbyG

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What definition of "hardcore" are you using, then? It seems to qualify by the criteria of "longevity and replayability, a tolerance for poor graphics in an otherwise enjoyable game... fantasy, science fiction, ridiculously complex stats"; it's not particularly difficult, but neither were A Link To The Past or most of the Monkey Island games. I'm starting to smell a bit of No True Scotsman here.

edited 10th Sep '09 12:32:23 PM by Nornagest

I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.

If Fallout3 isn't a hardcore game, I don't know what else is. First time I've seen it lumped together with Wii Sports though

I'm using the definition I have been using throughout this thread.

I'll admit I'm out of my depth here, but Fallout 3 never struck me as a being a hardcore game. I don't own a copy, but the people I see playing it tend not be hardcore types, and I was under the impression that it was similar to Oblivion, the overall style and feel of which is not remotely 80s retro.

Yes, that's a vague nitpick, and you may well question its relevance, but I think hardcore gaming is far more closely tied to the mood and aesthetics of the games than its adherents would have you believe.

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Wait, so is the only type of hardcore game one that no one except nerds will play?

Please note that in the comic itself, he makes references to games like Super Mario Bros, as a sign of his supposed superiority.

I think we're talking about a few different types of gaming here. Because if only nerdy games are "core", well, those games have never been popular. Meanwhile, Super Mario Bros is single-handedly credited with reviving the home gaming industry in North America.

But Super Mario Bros is a fun, challenging, replayable fantasy game that was made in the 1980s.

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I think you're attaching way too much importance to the "'80s retro" aspect.

I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.

No, I'm attaching importance to a vague "know-it-when-you-see-it" feel which is very difficult to define, but which is a quality I happen to like in a game, and which seems to be common to so-called hardcore games.

In any case, the retro aspect does matter. It's a nostalgia thing. People like Scott Ramsoomair likely grew up with games like Super Mario Bros; it's natural that he'd prefer them.

edited 10th Sep '09 1:38:37 PM by BobbyG

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