Drowtales Unbiased

Suntiger, I think you kind of missed the point. It's not that one species is better than everyone else. It's that another species was used as a major antagonist and had no advantages whatsoever. There wasn't much tension when they attacked the Halme castle because they were a bunch of steel wielding magic using warriors fighting bronze and leather clad muggles who were scared at the sight of them.

I mean, this alone would be ok if we were supposed to see some kind of commentary about the different societies moralities and how the Halmes were no better, or just forced to fight under an evil leader. We really didn't get that, it was the drow bursting in with all of the morality, all of the good weapons, the most elite soldiers in a thousand mile radius, and all of the magic. Nobody except the token human had so much as a scratch, and there that scratch didn't develop into anything but a momentary inconvenience.

The main story really does a poor job of portraying anything non drow. An audiobook claims that the dwarves are dangerous raiders, but their one comic appearance again didn't even scratch anyone and only inconvenienced one slave. Hermiones were built up as some big bad holding Faen, who's been missing lose to a decade. One knight was intimidating and smashed a bunch of fanon. Next time ...they literally stood there open mouthed as Ariel crosses an entire town clearly visible, not bothering to draw bows. At least stormtroopers actually fire a few shots before dying, or in this case deficating themselves and running away after one kick from a small girl.

Oh, the hypocrisy...

@Jayngfet I'm not arguing from a specific event, I'm arguing from the point of the whole comic. Yes, the arc where they go to Nagyescsed had pacing problems and was not very well-written compared to other chapters. However, I never saw any buildup to make halmes into a Big Bad. They never were a major antagonist for me. Antagonist, yes. Major, no. Maybe it's because I remembered that Chiri's visions are symbolic and not an actual description of what will happen. Recall the chapter where she has a vision of a demonic templar compared with what actually happened with Tir'ade.

Furthermore, I saw no moral upper hand with Ariel's rescue attempt, or rather, morality didn't even enter into my thoughts of the plot/events. I usually leave that aside since morality in Drowtales is all about point of view anyway.

I was a bit surprised that nobody except for Vaelia got any cuts, scratches or bruises, because in hand to hand combat, with or without weapons, you usually get *some* scratches in a melee, so that was a bit disappointing (mainly Shan'naal when he fights side by side with Vaelia). I don't have a problem with Ariel though. She had superstition working for her to the point she hardly had to do more than show up to make the soldiers cower or run away. Yes, that lack of challenge doesn't make for an interesting story, but it makes a certain sense within the setting. Also, bear in mind that stormtroopers are a very different proposition compared to a bronze age warrior. A stormtrooper is a highly trained soldier who is in regular contact with aliens, meaning he won't be thrown off by an alien appearance. Furthermore, the tech level of the universe he lives in demands an education that in itself require a certain sophistication of thought that a bronze age warrior can't replicate in his natural environment.

The dvergars *are* dangerous raiders. Only the Sarghress and Nal'sarkoth are generally either safe enough or capable of handling them if they do attack. Ergo, the one comic appearance of dvergar attacking fae was against one of the clans that can handle those attacks fairly well. That does not invalidate the dvergars as a serious threat to fae trade caravans and travellers. To make a similie; the dvergar are somali pirates. Regular trade caravans and travellers are cruise liners or private yatches. The highland raiders are a battleship. See what I'm getting at?

While I realize that this is my own view, I don't think Drowtales portray non-fae species badly. It's more that they portray them very little. Absence of portrayal rather than badly done portrayal, which in my book is a significant difference. Compare how much of the non-fae societies we have seen with how much we have seen of the drow (Hel, even the vanir haven't been shown). And we certainly don't know all about drow society either.

Which brings us back to my original point. The previous complaints here came across to me as Drowtales, as a whole, suck because they made the fae equivalents of Greek/Norse gods. Period. They did not focus on a single arc/event as your main complaint do. It smacked of "elves are already powerful, pretty nancy boys in other settings and this Fan Wank cranks it up to eleven, therefore it sucks" (combined with "Dwarves are awesome and this comic sucks for not making them awesome" for some), which to me is Completely Missing The Point of the comic.

edited 12th Jul '10 3:04:31 AM by suntiger745

I'm not here to say the whole comic is bad, it's just that whenever it focuses on non drow everything goes down significantly. I thought when I was listening to the audiobooks things would be better than they would. Fen's story in itself seems like it wasn't done, but now we sort of know the answer. While in the beginning he was meek, didn't know much about his area of expertise, and had a lot to find out about a species that thought of him as sub-human, to excuse the awkwardness of the saying.

Except Dahl appeared a hundred years later with his descendants. Apparently nothing much changed with him. He never distinguished himself enough to stop Dahl from confusing him for his grandkids, he never manned up enough to stand up for his family to well ...not be organised in every aspect by one person. We can tell from those interactions that he never really did anything that changed anything about his life in any significant way over the story. That one cameo by one character revealed how his development largley played out, and it was rather unimpressive.

Now there's plenty of other things up for debate about drowtales. The comic as a whole is enough to keep me checking every night for an update, and nobody can argue that it's not beautifully drawn, but it's not the perfect webcomic.

Besides, most of the ire from this isn't towards the comic itelf so much as the forum base. Some forum members don't exactly meet their standards of roleplay quality, or general etiquette. Doesn't help from what I heard a certain forum member identified himself and generally acted badly on /tg/ itself.

Fen's story wasn't done. It was intended to be longer with a visit to each of the Underworld cities, but the audiobooks were fairly expensive to produce/pay for and didn't generate any income so they had to quit before the whole project was even halfway complete.

It's too bad, because I really liked the audiobooks. Both to hear a narrated story, but also get a halme's view of the drow and the underworld. Especially one that wasn't conflict-oriented.

However, I think what we see of Dhal's attitude to Fen in the audiobooks that did get produced was pretty indicative of how she regarded both him and then halmes in the Stone Company as a whole. Ergo, fond, but distant. The halmes of Stone Company seems to be a long term breeding project (based on the Sha'shi audiobook and Fen's visit to the scholars and the chibi page with Dhal listing the generations). It would be interesting to learn how much the halmes are aware that they are in a breeding program, and what their feelings are about it.

Anyway, to get back to Dhal's behaviour, I think she does recognize individual persons from her breeding project, but at the same time her generational focus probably make it seem like she's watching the same thing happen over and over (like puberty, individuality aside, teeneagers tend to behave fairly similar regardless of the generation), and that's why she mixes up their names. Unless she does it just to tease. :P

Anyway, from what little we know (damn, I wish the Alstraat's journal series hadn't been canceled!) it does indeed seem like Fen didn't do anything spectacular (though the fact that Dhal mistakes Kai for him indicates she remembers him five generations later, in a way). It would be interesting to know if he found out exactly what Dhal long term plans for him and his family were and how he reacted. Judging from the little we do know it seems he either didn't find out or else accepted (resignedly or calmly we don't know either) his lot in life, including Dhal managing his life to a greater or lesser degree.

Again, this comes across as absence of portrayal rather than bad portrayal, but it's possible we just look on that matter differently.

I'll repeat myself here, but again, the drow and their internal conflicts are the main focus of the comic. Yes, they don't live in a vaccum so it shows them having contacts with the other species from time to time, but it is mostly short and peripheral. Given that we know far from everything about drow and their cultures and so on, we know vastly less about the gobiln species and even the other fae. Also again; interspecies conflict is not the main theme of the comic. While some might prefer to focus on that and/or take the viewpoint of one of the goblin races (rooting for the underdog is common after all) this is not what Kern has chosen. If that is what people prefer, there are a large number of publications in various media that does have that as its focus. Why do they not go read them instead of working themselves up over Drowtales not being to their taste? I know quite a few and can give a few tips if anyone is interested. Hel, I'll toss one in for free: Go read Grunts! by Mary Gentle. Nasty, gritty and hilarious all at once. It's a great read, with orcs as the main protagonists.

Who claimed Drowtales was a perfect webcomic? Sure, I like it a lot, but I don't think it's perfect.

As for the forum being a source of ire for the tg members, that I can understand. Online forums by their nature tend to attract posting before you think for all sides in any argument (chats and comments are even worse), but in that regard I wasn't exactly impressed by the posts I read on tg either. Perhaps 40% of the posts had a legitimate complaint, or at least had a clear point they had a beef with albeit stating it in an insulting manner. The rest of the posts seemed to be mostly insults towards the comic, its concepts or Kern as a person, or just insulting Drowtales in general because others did it.

Yes, some fans of Drowtales are not very thoughtful, rash or are outright dicks. However, if that is something tg has an issue with, it's definitely a case of pot calling kettle black. That said, kudos to the fair number of posters (alas not the majority, 10-20% I'd say) who did present things they have issues with in a clear and constructive manner. I might or might not agree with them, but it would be very interesting to discuss with them.

Edit: spelling

edited 23rd Jul '10 11:59:39 PM by suntiger745

Hey, I'm not saying I how much I agree or disagree with each individual /tg/ members motivations at the moment. Generally speaking however people generally get their percepions from the absolute best and worst of a fandom for the fandom as a whole. Generally speaking there are also more ways to fail than succeed, so there's always going to be more failures than sucesses just about anywhere. Even without modifiers every forum is going to have plenty of idiots running around.

I do however note after speaking with ex and current fans most new readers that like it tend to be inexperienced twelve year olds, and most of the older ones stuck around after and "grew up" together. Given the nature of the comic is brightly colored special people rejecting North American standards to be special and cool, this generally means RP development latches onto those parts. Even without going into the comics qualities these are indisputable facts of the setting that fans will either consciously or subconsiouly latch onto . Without a large fandom you generally get much, much fewer good members that are usually just comparativly so. I've met some pretty cool people there, but I've also met some people I can't quite describe.

TL;DR Drowtales is stuck being about uber special people and is an ideal breeding ground for questionable roleplay and forum etiquette. In an ideal world it wouldn't be and we wouldn't be having this conversation due to bad ones not attracting this mess in the first place, but conditions are what they are.

Heh, yes I know what you mean about forums. I know what it's like at the Bethesda Forums, for example, due to being and Elder Scrolls fan. Some of the nicest, most helpful people around combined with the worst duouchbags and ignorant, immature assholes. And everything in between.

And yes, a majority of the new readers seem to be less mature overall than previous ones. Though perhaps that is my own age talking. ;) I wouldn't go so far as to call them inexperienced twelwe year olds, but a fair number of them seem to view Drowtales as something akin to Naruto or Atl A, which is is almost as annoying as the attitude that drowtales suck because its inherently imbalanced setting. That attitude also misses the point of the setting/story.

I can't agree about the 'rejecting North American' values though. At least, not for the comics. To reject something means you first have to be aware of it, and none of the species in the Drowtales world know about North American values, or any equivalent, because it doesn't exist in their world, ergo, they can't reject it.

That is not the case for the forums of course. While you have to immerse yourself in the setting (including the different values) to roleplay in the Drowtales world, there are some people who seems to take a positive delight in embracing the different values. I haven't looked that closely on the RP threads beside the registration thread and newbie school due to lack of time, but from what I recall most people doesn't focus too much on the social values.

Rather, it's fairly common to see the new players especially trying to make their character special in some way, which is why the registration process is pretty slow. Many are new to RP'ing (or so it seems, not to mention the shitload of info you need to go though to make a character that fit the setting and criteria) and doesn't initially grasp that being special isn't the goal and indeed, is actually bad for the roleplay (at least if they think special is the same as powerful). As the Game-Breaker entry mentions, there's a reason you can't play a too old fae character. Brooding loners are also fairly bad as roleplay characters. They can be played well, but usually roleplay involves a group doing a task or job and y'know interacting. Having a loner then is a bit inadvisable. Ok, I digress. You probably know this already. It's the newbies that don't. ;)

I also have to disagree with the characterisation of Drowtales as being about "uber special people". While the fae, particularly the drow and vanir, are powerful they aren't special. Or taking it a different way, people aren't special because of their power but what they do in relation to other people. Take Diva'ratrika, one of the most powerful characters in terms of both political power and mana manipulation, capable of literally godlike feats with the later. How much good did that do her? Sure, her "ordinary" mana blast was powerful enough to bring down a multistory building, but she missed her target because Snadhya and her sisters dodged. And their nether techniques could to things she didn't expect and couldn't defend well against. Also, for all her individual power, political clout and charisma, she did not make Sharen the most powerful clan of Chel by herself, nor was she a supreme, unchallenged Queen. Without her clan and the imperial court (which included the Dutan'viir) she would never have been able to accomplish what she did.

If we depart from characters and instead look at the species, the drow and vanir still aren't special, just more powerful. Kern have mentioned that he has a fairly pessimistic view of people as a whole, and that is reflected in the stories and setting. People frequently make mistakes and act stupidly, either out of ignorance, pride or other emotions.

Furthermore, look at the dokkalfar and vanir predecessors! They were arguably more advanced in their mana and mana tech on several levels. They were also more numerous and as such they might have been more powerful (due to larger mana pools/cities). This did nothing for them in the end. The war was so destructive that a moon was partially destroyed and large tracts of land was made uninhabitable for people in general and fae in particular. The nether beings that ended up being used as a weapon of war was the icing on the bloody cake that practically destroyed both civilzations and only a small remnant of the dokkalfar and vanir survived. Those small remnants managed to settle in the underworld (by force in some cases) but the scarce resources wiped out some settlements and caused horrible (to dokkalfar eyes) mutations in others; the Xulie'solen.

To add insult to injury, the warfare did not stop. The drow rebelled against the remnant of the dark elves that were their ancestors and then proceeded to fight amongst themselves, in ever more viscioius ways. Diva'ratrika's 'Queen's rules' held the city together for a while, but as Mel pointed out in her rant to Lu, with each violent confrontation the major clans have become richer and the number of poor and slaves have grown. They have learned nothing from history and the mistakes of the past and Mel (rightly) fears that the Sharen and Sarghress conflict might push things even further in terms of segregation, making the poor and slaves both poorer and more numerous.

With all this in mind, I have a hard time seeing how the drow, even with being the dominant species, are so "special". The only difference between them and the mana-less goblin species is that they screw up more spectaluarly and with greater and harsher consequences. Something that both detractors and the more immature fans alike seem to miss entirely btw.

Edit: spelling

edited 24th Jul '10 9:02:49 AM by suntiger745

"With all this in mind, I have a hard time seeing how the drow, even with being the dominant species, are so "special". The only difference between them and the mana-less goblin species is that they screw up more spectaluarly and with greater and harsher consequences. Something that both detractors and the more immature fans alike seem to miss entirely btw."

There's something you aren't getting. Drow are special in their current environment. Precursors don't factor in and they're literally the most powerful in their setting. Surface elves seem to have at the outside half a dozen small cities and hide very hard, and never get seen or focused in any average way. We never actually see an average Halme. It's all about Drow with more than a dozen rich cities and super powerful steel, able to tear down the humans and orcs currently living in the surface as the dominant groups with ease.

Any nondrow are also clearly "special" in some way. Your average DT human is a brown haired caucasian short pseudo european with bronze aged tech. Vaela's a pseudo japanese clearly physicically larger woman from a drow worshiping culture fighting with drow made weapons and armor. Vaela's not a bad character but you NEED to realize how that looks as the ONLY human with more than two lines. Likewise Rik is the *only* winged half dragon, and as far as slaves go Liriel is very, very far removed from the treatment and temperament of normal slaves. All "average" non noble drow from about half the clans don't show up. As well genetically the drow are supposed to be decaying but it's set up so the only physical in comic evidence is Yafien being slightly weeker and needing glasses, and he doesn't exactly get much screentime.

It's always best to established that you need to see the rule before the exception, but I've been reading for years and even I have no idea what the rules are for most of this stuff.

TL ; DR It doesn't matter how good drow are measured on the entire multiverse, look at whats actually going on in the comic.

My opinion doesn't mean anything, but...I'd like to say that this webcomic doesn't interest me because when you make the characters spectacularly powerful, it just gets dull.

Yes, I know that doesn't mean they can steamroll all their problems. But it takes away a lot of room for struggle and conflict.

I'm more interested in people who have to put their spirit into accomplishing their goals. Seeing someone who can tear down a city in a day just incites an eye roll from me and I pass it by, looking for something more mundane, something I want to watch win because winning seems so unlikely for them. Makes it easier to relate to them as well.

So, that's why I'm not interested in Drow Tales...

@Jayngfet

"There's something you aren't getting. Drow are special in their current environment. Precursors don't factor in and they're literally the most powerful in their setting. Surface elves seem to have at the outside half a dozen small cities and hide very hard, and never get seen or focused in any average way. We never actually see an average Halme. It's all about Drow with more than a dozen rich cities and super powerful steel, able to tear down the humans and orcs currently living in the surface as the dominant groups with ease. "

Actually, that was my point. However, I differentiate between powerful and special. For me, they are not the same thing. To take your words "look at whats actually going on in the comic": One of the main reason we don't see much of the halmes, light elves, orcs and commoners is that they aren't that important to the story (so far anyway). They are more there as flavour so far, with the possible exception of the Nagyescsed arc, and that was two chapters out of twentyfive (or 12,5% of the story so far) with halmes as actual antagonists rather than peripheral background characters. This to me indicates that halmes aren't going to play a large part in the comic. Arguably, the climax of the Nagyescsed arc was Ariel finding Faen. Chiri offing the halme king was a glimpse of what another of the main characters were doing at the same time, and Liriel's hallucination was just setting the stage for the later chapter where she turns into Diva. Your Mileage may Vary, I'll grant

Also: Drowtales. While I love to know more about the peripheral species and characters because I enjoy that sort of stuff, the main comic is about the drow nobles in a time of change. Maybe we are just talking past each other, but to me your main complaint about Drowtales comes across as, to make a simile, a bit like reading the Belgariad and complaining that the main characters are too powerful and have it too easy (and let's face it, Belgarath, Polgara and later Belgarion are vastly powerful). Where is the Tolnedrans, and why don't we see more of them? All we get now is a token tolnedran in the form of Ce'nedra. Boooring.

Ergo, it is focusing on something other than what the story is actually about.

And I think their dokkalfar and vanir precursors factor in quite significantly. They are the reason the drow even exist, and their history as well as a few individuals still alive continue to have an impact on the environment and decisions of the current generation of leaders today.

The decay of the drow are more of a subtext really. I don't think Yafein is an example of that. He was born in Chel and that has enough mana that neither mana deprivation nor lack of mundane resources is a likely cause of his weakness. Rather, the decay is brought up in the Ill'haress gathering briefly, and that's really all we have gotten. It ties into the limited resources issue, which together with lack of space is one of the most important background currents that is shaping the setting and story (the other is the social conflict, which ties into the resource issue, and the nether beings). It will likely grow worse (would the mention of it at the gathering be a kind of Chekov'sGunman?) and the harshening environment is likely one of the things that will shape Ariel and her allies as we come back after the time skip. How much remains to be seen.

The bit about needing to see the rule before the exception has some valid criticism in it. A problem is that Drowtales has been evolving the rules as well as the exceptions and what is what in parallel with the actual story. This makes it hard to clearly show what is a rule and what is an exception. It doesn't help that the grey and gray morality with it's flawed characters make for a more diffuse definition as well. It's harder to pinpoint hard values and solid definitions because the setting itself deliberately works against establishing what is good and evil, or a convenient yardstick to measure the power of, for example, drow nobles versus drow commoners and so on.

@Zaka51

Hmm, I'm probably going to repeat some of my points, but here goes: First, power levels mostly impact on the enjoyment if the conflicts shown center around powerful protagonists versus weak antagonists. Again, this happened in 2 chapters out of 25. Yes, those two chapters are a valid target for criticism, but the vast majority of the story center around situations and conflicts where people have to struggle and face obstacles and/or antagonists that are roughly their own power level. You can't tell me Ariel didn't have to work hard to get acknowledged as Quain's heir, or earn the right to go after Faen. Or that Faen herself just breezed through school. Quian'tana didn't exactly just magic up her mercenary bands, waltz into Chel and got the position as major clan for free. Ash'waren, for all her power and influence, were defeated and several of her siblings slain and is restricted in her avialbale actions today as a result. As mentioned in the previous post, Diva'ratrika, possibly the most powerful individual in the comic, definitely didn't steamroll her opposition.

Granted, had they faced the goblin species, steamrolling is probably exactly what would have happened (even though I think both halmes, orcs and definitely the dvergars would have gotten in a couple of good licks). Which would definitely make for a boring read if that was the main storyline. However, interspecies conflict is not the main theme of the comic. If you read Drowtales from a human perspective (that is, from the halme bit characters and Vaelia), the comic will be confusing and vastly dissatisfying. It's like reading Lord of the Rings from the perspective of Barliman, the innkeeper of the Prancing Pony. It doesn't work.

You say you doesn't like easy wins. Fair enough, go count the number of conflicts and situations in the comic and see how many that involves no particular effort versus those that do require significant effort and then tally the result and see what you come up with.

Btw, they didn't tear down the city. They didn't even tear down the castle. A bit misinformed there.

edited 25th Jul '10 6:43:15 PM by suntiger745

^ Um, when I say I don't find it interesting, I mean it.

As in, it didn't grab my interest, so I don't read it. I have no idea what all the stuff you're referencing is.

All I know is that the drow are really strong and could crush pretty much everything else (with the noted exceptions) and the comic is about their politics.

I can't relate to characters of a super-powerful group, much less understand and care about their politics, because when you give me characters who can crush the "puny humans" I tend to find it dull.

This isn't me criticizing. This is me explaining why I don't find it interesting. Because I figured I may as well blab about how I feel, even though it doesn't contribute much other than the viewpoint of an outsider.

edited 25th Jul '10 6:44:11 PM by Zaka51

-blinks- You mean you can't relate to other humans? We're pretty much in the situation the drow are in drowtales, power-wise. Now I'm confused.

edited 25th Jul '10 6:44:59 PM by suntiger745

Oh I can relate to humans. But wasn't it said just a page or so ago that drow are really, really different from humans?

Maybe all the stuff I've read has misled me to make incorrect assumptions. If so...I'm a moron.

edited 25th Jul '10 6:46:23 PM by Zaka51

''"All I know is that the drow are really strong and could crush pretty much everything else (with the noted exceptions) and the comic is about their politics. I can't relate to characters of a super-powerful group, much less understand and care about their politics, because when you give me characters who can crush the "puny humans" I tend to find it dull."''

Hmm, I think I might have understood you wrong before. What I read from this is: Your perspective and sympathies are with the humans. Unless they have a significant role as protagonists you are not interested in the story. Is that correctly understood?

And no, the drow are not human. Their biology is significantly different and to a lesser degree so are their morals. The later also vary from city to city, clan to clan and even individual to individual, much like Bulgarians doesn't have the same morals as Kenyans who doesn't have the same morals as the Japanese (and that's not even touching on the different morals present within ethnic and social grounps within those countries).

However, the drow are people. For the most part it is fairly easy to understand what motivates and drives them. It is different from our motivations and morals, but their actions still follow a chain of cause and effect that you can see. They are not incomprehensible.

Also, the drow can't crush each other easily. The drow vs drow conflict is what the comic is about, in no small part because it is more interesting to read about a conflict between equals (sort of) than a conflict between sharks and lemmings, to use a simile.

... I hope I am making sense. Late here and I'm pretty tired. ;)

edited 25th Jul '10 7:06:59 PM by suntiger745

Hmm, I think I might have understood you wrong before. What I read from this is: Your perspective and sympathies are with the humans. Unless they have a significant role as protagonists you are not interested in the story. Is that correctly understood?

Mm, pretty much, yes. My attention is always inclined to focus on the more "mundane" characters within a setting. It's really just a personal opinion and I'm not trying to say anything about the comic's quality. (Though to be honest, I'm not that picky with who or what the protagonists are. I could probably read a story about dwarves or something. Maybe it's just drow in general that just fail to interest me. I'm not a big fan of medieval fantasy so I don't have much experience with the genre soooo I probably shouldn't be talking about it like I am now.)

And yeah, I know the drow have a much harder time fighting each other than the other ones. I know that's what this comic is mostly about. It's not like I expected much else, though. It's called Drow Tales, after all.

But you raise very good points, and I'm thinking that I probably should do more research before making opinions. Or just refrain from having an opinion since I haven't read it and don't intend to read it.

EDIT: I entered a topic and interrupted a discussion of a medieval fantasy webcomic that I've never read, and lacked interest in the genre.

You know, I probably wasn't thinking straight when I started posting.

edited 25th Jul '10 7:15:45 PM by Zaka51

Nah, you don't have to refrain from having an opinion, just be aware when that opinion is based on very loose ground and acknowledge it. Which you do, kudos to that. ^_^

Research isn't necessary, but it does give your arguments about a subject greater weight, because then you will have more actual information on it rather than second-hand information and hearsay.

I don't get what your saying here. Sure it's called drowtales but that doesn't mean you can't ignore the sort of thing this genre was founded on. Since tolkien the whole things been pretty setting focused, giving the universe characters inhabit as much attention as characters themselves. But here you seem to be saying every part of the setting doesn't matter unless directly touched by Ariel, and even then only while touched.

I mean there's suggestion of whats going on, and Nagasceyed appeared in the Audiobooks. The fact that it was a world power that'd been rising in military, economic, and political power for a century kind of makes it all the more Jarring what happened.

This in itself ties in with the special thing, your sort of saying the drow aren't special because everything that isn't a focus should be ignored. Things really doesn't change anything and makes the actual problem worse. There's a setting page with twelve chapters devoted to the nobles, and barely anything else. I've yet to see a whole city map on there, and other than a brief mention that they exist nowhere in those chapters is any information about anything that isn't a drow. Thats not a setting by any stretch of the word. Goblins are the focus of goblins but we see plenty about humans and orcs in the setting given what the author has to work with. When they need to break into ...well it's the same plot of chapters 22-23, but better paced with the same events better paced on comic.

Goblins has better pacing than a daily update comic, think about that for a moment.

And back to chapters 22-23, even though no one likes them in any way, there's no indication of drow acting like drow here. Maybe I could stomach those chapters if they didn't have the protagonist take moral superiority. One of the sparse footnotes in the setting said humans were supposed to be the most moral. Here ...they really aren't.

While I understand the need for a good antagonist but the circumstances mean there was no real reason to have someone bathe in the blood of innocents other than to make his killing seem justified. I mean he appeared for twelve seconds, and didn't do anything other than sit there and wait to get killed like his entire army.

I mean really, again, the rule before the exception.

TL ; DR, just because your the focus that doesn't mean everything else stops existing.

A bit poorly formulated perhaps. I was attempting to address your point of "Look at what actually happens in the comic" and perhaps interpreted it too literally. I'll try to make it clearer. You don't need a very fleshed out setting to tell a good story (though it certainly helps!) and at the same time a well fleshed out setting isn't a guarantee that a story will be good. Yes, the setting matters because it is the background in which the characters move and act. However, the setting isn't the same as the story.

As an example, when Chrys'tel is investigating the old Queen's tower, we don't also need to be shown or told that there is an orc leader uniting many of the orc tribes on the surface in the north (which might be a valid thing to include from a roleplay angle). The only parts of the setting that are important for the reader are those that touch on the story (for someone wanting to roleplay it the setting it's a different matter of course). This should not be confused with the setting only having importance when a character is interacting with it of course, but the characters and how they act in the events that shape them is what drives the story.

About the foundations of fantasy stories, that might be something we disagree on. You don't have to follow the formula with a rich worldsetting to place your story in. True, you ignore it at your peril, but there's no rule stating you have to include such and such to make a good story.

• The Garret novels by Glenn Cook doesn't have a very fleshed out setting aside from what the main character does, talks and thinks about.
• The Neverending Story doesn't have a map.
• The 'A song of ice and fire' series doesn't touch on the people and cities of the eastern continent much - except when Daenrys interact with it/them (directly or indirectly).
• Tolkien may have had extensive notes on Mirkwood and Harad for the Lord of the Rings but we don't see them in the actual story, because they are not important for the story and have no impact on it. The haradrim and the múmak cavalry does have an impact on the story, and they do appear, but there's not really any decription of their culture or how their lands look.

It's been a while since I listened to the audiobooks. Did they really say Nagyescsed was a world power, or a rising power? However, it makes kinda sense. Alstraat's journal takes place about 200 years before current events and the halme general's thoughts about decadence in the end of the Nagyescsed arc seems to indicate that the kingdom did rise to power and then became decadent and corrupt. It follows the usual cycle of a nation/power (Rome being perhaps the most famous example) going through: foundation/expansion - lawmaking/administration - corruption - fall/revolution and then the cycle starts over again.

Also, there's one significant difference between the goblins going into Brassmoon City and Ariel's group going into the halme city. The goblins are underdogs without backup, which makes it all the more awesome when Complains armours up and utters the line: "Redefining 1/3 challenge rating" before attacking the soldiers.

Ariel's group has the equivalent of Apollo, Thor, Artemis and Frey for backup, although they didn't know it. Without that backup they would have been in serious trouble indeed, since the majority of the halme forces were diverted to deal with the distraction. While they are superstitious, in enough numbers I think the halmes would have overcome that and attacked. I agree that Goblins had better pacing though. I would have liked to see a bit more of the fights in the Nagyscsed arc for one thing, and I thought the lesser mana available on the surface would have a larger impact on how much they could use it. Then again, that chapter did have bad pacing. Compare it to chapter 4, 17 or 25. All of them have better pacing, and that's in the same comic. Btw, I think it would be easier to get better pacing for a webcomic that updates slower since you have more time to refine the plot.

Sorry, but with "No indication of drow acting like drow", what exactly do you mean? From what we have seen in DT, drow act very differently depending on the individual. I'll address this in more depth later on.

And the humans acting more moral I took to mean that unlike the drow who large go by "might makes right" the humans of the drowtales setting have ideals like a higher justice, good and evil and such, which are morals that are largely absent from the drow, aside from points of view (Quain thinks Zala is bad, Zala thinks Quain is bad). And yes, the king was a bit of an anticlimax. He looked kinda imposing when we first saw him. Turned out he was just an old man, and not even an old warrior it seems. Or he thought the elf blood would make him safe or something. A surprise, but more of a WTF?! one than a "Oh shit, now Chiri's in trouble" one. ;) Seems his general held more actual power and the king was more of a figurehead. I saw that more as an anticlimax, but also an interesting twist rather than a dissapointment.

Though, as I understood it the meta reason the halme king bathed in the blood of elves wasn't to make him seem evil, more to illustrate the superstition and ingorance halmes not in contact with them have about the drow. Not "Look how evil I am! Bleed for me little elves Muahaha!", rather. "I do not want to grow old and die! The black devils do not age... It must be something in their blood. If I bathe in their blood I too will be able to live forever!"

Alright, time to address the "drow doesn't act like drow" thing. This won't be addressed to you specifically, Jayngfet, it's a general address, since I've seen this come up before - that the drow of Drowtales aren't real drow. That is a very strange attutude I think. There is no rule stating that all terms and/or concepts must adhere to a specific meaning. I have seen the same for vampires, that the Twilight vampires really aren't. That too I find baffling. Given them many different versions of vampires existing in myth and story I see nothing that would invalidate the Twilight variety as 'not vampires'.

Likewise with the drow, of both Dn D/Forgotten Realms and Drowtales. Neither version adhere all that closely to the myths they are (loosely) based on. The sole similarity is that they are elves/trolls (the underground version is quite similar the old myths) who live underground. Period. Beyond that, drow in different settings vary a lot (I've read a story online that had them extremely pale due to lack of sunlight) but there's no additional set of criteria you have to meet to be allowed to name your fantasy species drow. Unless the individual reading the story/setting chooses to impose his or her personal criteria.

For example, saying that drow must be black-skinned elves with red eyes and white hair who live underground and worships Lloth (or at least a spider goddess/spiders) is to impose their own narrow definition and is just setting themselves up for dissapointment or needless aggravation when other people choose to portray them differently. The same goes for demons. To say that a demon always and automatically is a minion of Satan, period, is not only ignoring their origin and the many different interpretations of demons that exist (compare djinn and oni for example, neither of which fits the "Satan's minion" criteria but which often gets lumped under the "demon" definition), it also means setting yourself up for dissapointment/anger. Another example: Tinkerbell and the tooth fairies in Hellboy 2 are very different to say the least, yet both are fairies.

Actually, now that I think about it, wasn't there a brief mention in the Felde audiobook about everyone living in the underworld being considered drow by the ones living on the surface? I think they called a dvergar drow, and mentioned that a halme living in the Underworld would be a drow to a surface halme. I'll have to go and listen to it again...

To change track again, I think the Drowtales setting is sufficiently developed/shown if you read the comic as a graphic novel. However, if you want to roleplay in it, it is decidedly lacking. This is due to the history and how the comic came to be/developed, and IIRC it's one point Kern mentioned in an interview that he would change if he could. That is, if he could start it all over he would plan out more of the setting before starting the story (mostly so he didn't have to deal with any extensive re-writes).

Edit: spelling

edited 4th Aug '10 9:42:21 AM by suntiger745

While you don't NEED to show every little thing in a setting -and probably shouldn't unless you're damn sure you know what you're doing- that's not the point.

The point IS that there were pages crafted specifically for the drowtales setting. While I understand that Chel and it's citizens come first due to relevance, you can't really call it a *setting* when you've only done about half of one city in detail. As well, when we actually go to the surface places or hear about them we don't really know a lot about them. While this might normally be fine, they're supposed to be the main antagonists for Ariel when they appear, and Kern said he delayed a bit just to build surface culture a bit, which I doubt we'll ever actually see or make sense of.

Them being built up as a major antagonist leads into my next point. How the hell are we supposed to take them seriously as an antagonist when they have no advantiges. Their evil plan flat out won't work, everyone on their side is physically weaker and much more poorly armed, they don't even use the advantage of ranged weaponry so much as literally stand there and wait for Ariel to cross the distance of an entire city to get to them, hit them once, then run around defecating themselves.

You can't really tell a good story when the protagonist has the physical, moral, emotional, magical, and biological experience. It just plain doesn't work. Any obsticals the characters breeze through in seconds. A locked door is no issue, the best armed guards are defeated offscreen. The prepubescent little girls with no backup can defeat an opponent with a knife sneaking up on them without issue.

While there's plenty of room with a fantasy race to put your own spin on it, there's some things that won't go over well. These drow have things that are seemingly random and make no sense. I mean, why do they have tuxedo's? Why do a race that have always been xenophobic and closed have knowledge of cross continental sailing when even the humans that live on the coast have only developed it relatively recently? Where did these groups of people living in the same relatively closed space develop weapons who's real world analogues were developed for situations they'd never encounter and wield weapons that in some cases seem to be very impractical? One daydream plot involved a drow clan leader walking out near naked and pregnant into a crows containing all her political rivals. That in and of itself seems kind of headache inducing even from a non drow standpoint, especially since half of them came armed.

Drow don't need to be dark skinned redish eyed spider worshippers. "Demon" in and of itself means a lot of different things to different people, and only gets more complex the more you delve into it. It's just that you need to be close enough to enough elements to make it work, while this isn't an issue for most main fantasy races due to all the ways they've already been done drow don't really have that luxury. They were created by a specific man for a specific reason. Unlike orcs with the same basis, they have much more fleshed out elements to them. You have much less to work with in terms of maneuverability.

Not to say there aren't cool elements in drowtales, it's just that a good deal of things sort of fall flat.

Yep. It doesn't help that the earlier worldsetting pages were inaccurate when the later pages were made. And now even some of the newer worldsetting pages are inaccurate too. Kern addressed this briefly in a podcast interview recently. He said something like: "I've learned my lesson and will not be making any more worldsetting pages. All info will be in the comic itself, not presented as raw data on the side."

Ergo, it will be treated as a straight up online graphic novel with no information provided outside of it. This means that roleplaying in the (already limitd) setting will suffer, though it's possible a "roleplay worldsetting" will be adapted that uses moderator created content to flesh out the holes. If the later is good or bad I don't know. Will have to see how it turns out.

I think putting the main comic on a purely graphic novel foot will be good in the end though. Less confusing that way (only internal inconsistencies to worry about, not meta ones too :P ).

Yup, he did. Unfortunately, that development did not get shown much. The part that was going to show the hermione humans got cut, and so we missed that portion of the human/surface part. From what Dhal, Kai and that other guy say at the trading post though, it seems the hermiones with their religion and knowledge (and weapons) of iron are taking over much of the land, expanding their Niwacer kingdom. Haltonreibe holds out because it's fairly advenced due to being a trading center and Nagyescsed is still under halme control, probably because it's so far east.

Actually, it is possible to write a good story where the protagonist is considerably more powerful than the antagonist and/or the friends/allies of the protagonist. It's much harder than to write a good story where the power balance is equal or the protagonist is the underdog, but it's possible. Mainly you can put the focus on other thigs than physical conflict. Make it social, moral or ethical, or some combination thereof (including physical, in part). Not the only way, but the eaisest on a difficult topic. A few examples:

• Aurian, the mage from the Aurian novels by Maggie Furey is considerably more powerful than ordinary humans (as are every other mage, who is a separate race in this setting). This is solved by pitching her against foes other than humans mostly.
• Flute/Aphrael from the Elenium and Tamuli series by David Eddings. She's a genuine god who takes some rather active actions in helping the other protagonists. Limited by the fact that there are rules against how much she is allowed to do.
• The Aes'sedai and Asha'man from the Dragon Reborn series by Robert Jordan. Take the passage where the Asha'man goes up against an army of normal humans. It's a slaughter. Limited by oaths against hurting poeple for the Aes'sedai and by the taint in Saidin who drives them insane for the Asha'man. They also go up against foes that are as powerful or more powerful than they are sometimes. Likewise the trollocs. At first they were a genuine threat to Rand and the others. Now they are basically mook fodder.
• Gandalf in Lord of the Rings by Tolkien. He's the equivalent of a demigod/angel. His supporting role makes his power level less blatant though, and is a case of how you can write a powerful character well.
• Pug and Tomas of Midkemia in the novels by Raymond E Feist. One is a extremely powerful mage and the other is in possession of nearly godlike powers (I think it's mentioned somewhere that the Valheru actually did fight gods on some occasions, but it's only mentione in passing). They do face ordinary soldiers on occasion and that's not much of a problem for them.

And yes, having the protagonists go up against antagonists that are much less powerful all the time is kinda boring. However, again, this is done in 2 chapters out of 25 so far. Bad pacing was an issue for those chapters, freely acknowledged by the creators. I fail to see how this puts Drowtales at large as a comic that sucks though. True, this is not something that has been argued by you, so that last comment isn't aimed at you either.

Oh come on Jayngfet. You bring up the tuxedo?! You know the daydream stuff is non-canon and shouldn't be included in a setting/story discussion about the main comic. Likewise the meeting at the Jaal'darya with the pregnant Asira. Below par arguing for you, you can do much better than this. Don't parrot /tg/ stuff you know isn't relevent. The daydream stories aims to have a loose plot, but due to the vote-progression system the plot you get is inconsistent, confusing and meanders all over the place even when it's not interrupted by non-sequiteur sex scenes. Some of the places used are canon, yes, but the stories in daydream rarely have anything to do with the main comic. To use Daydream to judge the main comic is really bad arguing and again, you can do much better.

As for cross-continental sailing I doubt the drow do that. Travelling on the sea, yes, but not too long distances I'd say, at least not if the small boat that was shown in Vaelia's Path is any indication. Also, only a few of those regularly going to the surface would know how to handle a boat. The highland raiders, the Nal'sarkoth and the Ilhard'dro are probably the only ones with memebers who knows how to handle a boat on the ocean (some others might have small boats to use in underground lakes and rivers though, and Nuqrah'shadeh seems to be a bit like Venice if that had been build on a large lake instead of a sea coast if we can trust what we have seen of it).

Well, the drow didn't always live underground. Their ancestors might have developed them while still on the surface. Mind you, I really hate Koil'dorath's sword. It's too huge to wield effectively, even if you use air sorcery to swing it (and Koil is portrayed as not liking to rely on sorcery to boot). And Zala'ess whip sword is ridiculous too. Hel, the whip sword as a concept is a case or Rule of Cool over what is pracical in the first place. Annoying to be sure, but I'm willing to give it a pass to enjoy the story. As an aside, Guts sword is the only issue I have with Berserk (so far at least), becaus of it's size.

Not buying the reasoning that the drow would be more constrained due to being developed for a specific purpose. If Drowtales had been set in the Dn D/Forgotten Realms setting I would have cried foul too, but now? Nope, I don't see any issue with calling them drow. I agree that many might see the name drow and automatically assume that it is about Dn D drow. That should be dispelled once the read the comic though, since it's pretty clearly not set in the Dn D universe. Maybe having their assumptions and/or preconceptions challenged is what makes people take issue with the name 'drow'. Particularly because the versions of drow other than Dn D have gotten much less exposure than different versions of orcs, dwarves, vampires, dragons and demons have. Still doesn't invlidate the term drow as used in Drowtales. It's like saying american football isn't football because they use their hands, which isn't allowed in "real" football (wich the US heathens persist in calling soccer :P ). It is football, just a different version than what is called football in Europe.

Mind you, you get plenty of arguing over that too. :P

Edit: spelling

edited 8th Aug '10 12:56:39 PM by suntiger745

I just took a peek... the art of this is really good.

It's probably for the best that setting pages are noncanon, the whole mess got confusing and infodump is one of the things the comic has needed to dial back on.

The tuxedo was from the main costume, where the Vloz says Kiel "won't wake up", gets dollified, and dressed up in a little suit. If generally made me wonder where Kharla would find a suit like that.

While I haven't read a good deal of those, the Wheel of time example at least was much different, since it was in territory neither group knew particularly well instead of one having to play offense or defense. We also got a sense of just how terrible the carnage from that battle is. Jordan went to great lengths to get inside the head of participants from both sides before, during, and after the events. The build up for both groups made if easy to believe, and the limitations on both were much more built up. Not to mention the fact that both groups are militaristic and made of the best of the best.

Drowtales ...doesn't do any of that. We have no POV for the enemy, we don't know anything of any member of the largest human group in the world and have seen no individual members of the group. In WOT we know characters at every level of that battle. Dynamics within the armies, grunts who've been childhood friends and had six novels for light development. In drowtales, we know one person is the kid of a major military figure, thats about all I can remember. Only the main characters currently present have had any real development or change in attitude. We have no reason to know or care about the Hermiones sine we didn't spend several chapters from their point of view, we didn't see much of what's going through their head, and we have no idea what sort of dynamics they have. Most actual conflict that would have taken place happens quietly off screen, whereas the Asha'man vs Aiel gives us every horrific detail of war.

Cross continental sailing was mentioned in chapter 3, where one characters father was mentioned as going across the sea offhandedly, as if it was no big deal and drow do that sort of thing all the time.

On the "what you're allowed to do" thing, it's more for what came before. You've got to observe the precident. Whereas you could fill volumes with "standard" elves, goblins, and trolls, drow you really can't. I can think of two sources of anything vaguely similar but not really before Gygax. Both have cave dwelling evil magical creatures with little other details that aren't the same as either dwarves or trolls.

So really you've got yourself stuck pretty firmly to Gygax, who developed his own fairly well is on record hating the idea of changing the concept to make it more sympathetic, and utterly bewildered at why anyone would want to do so to begin with.

Again, orcs had a similar problem but didn't have nearly that kind of detail. Orcishness is supposed to be more about the state of mind of the orcs than physical or cultural, and just about every source has either used that state of mind or subverted it for the sake of parody outside of badly written fantasy novels.

Oh, that was fun.

Fanservice!

Uhm... Is it just me, or is Mel up for some disappointment when she discovers the truth?