Drowtales Unbiased

Heya. New troper here.

I didn't know where else to put this, but I think the page for the webcomic Drowtales seems rather biased. It points out none of the flaws, semi-Mary Sue-ness of some characters, or the heavy amounts of squick in the storylines.

Not that I'm saying I don't like the series, I just think it seems a little a suspiciously completely positive review. Stop me if I'm seeming like a bitter troper.

edited 17th Mar '10 10:20:04 PM by Twittly

Well, are you talking pre- or post-Retcon Drowtales?

Said retcon eliminated a good part of the sueness and squick, so...

Shouldn't we include examples from the retconned parts? Just put a note that this WAS indeed, retconned, but was once a part of the story.

Honestly, I'm just bothered that the edit history has one person making a majority of all the edits.

Well, given that the retcon is an Orwellian one, I'm not sure.

edited 18th Mar '10 2:30:39 AM by Medinoc

Alright, now even I'M confused on this issue

While the story has been heavily retconned, and the new story replaces the old, the original versions are still hosted on the site, and should still be taken into account when writing certain portions of the article. After all, the representation of the characters in those parts of the comic are indicative of the writer's intended portrayal of the morality and emotions of his characters. If those viewpoints changed, it's even MORE important to point out those changes because it's yet more evidence of the meta-scape going on across the comics, which is probably some of the funnier things to read and write about.

Frankly, right now, I think that the Drowtales page is written far too heavily in the favor of the comic. The page overall is simply not entertaining, and the header doesn't tell the reader nearly enough about the convoluted silliness going on over the course of the story. In the end, the whole point is to be entertaining, so something needs to be done there.

This isn't surprising, as looking at the edit history, the majority of the article appears to be written and edited by maybe two people. In addition, one of these editors went to the trouble of completely removing legitimate representations of the tropes going on in the comic and replaced it with an ambiguous author-favored description.

Between that and outright misused tropes, I think that the Drowtales entry is in need of some heavy revising.

Well, as long as it doesn't become biased the other way...

Which is precisely why I am decidedly not going to lay a finger on the editing aspect. Because I know I couldn't be unbiased either...hey! At least I'm responsible, darnit!

edited 18th Mar '10 10:48:27 AM by Twittly

Okay, what with topics like this showing up here and on the Oot S forum so soon...

Let me guess, does anyone (here or whom you've heard of recently)'s objection to the comic involve the portrayal of dwarves in particular?

Just a hunch,

4

edited 18th Mar '10 10:57:51 AM by Quattuor

Ehhh...I don't object so much. Most of the main characters are drow after all and what with the Orwellian Retcon its reasonable to think there just isn't any time to flesh out side-line races.

So no. Honestly, I could give less of a crap about dwarves. I want to see more halme (Human) interaction personally.

edited 18th Mar '10 11:56:58 AM by Twittly

Yes, well, I was a little suspicious about the recent relative popularity of this topic, just because of this:

Warning: Links to an imageboard archive, so is not safe for work by default!

In short, about 2 days ago, denizens of 4Chan (sub-board "tg") decided to invade the Drowtales forum because they thought their drow were Mary Sue-ish. What with two topics about the merits of this little-(before)-discussed comic popping up in that time on two forums I watch, I became a little suspicious that these were related to what I linked.

But yeah, especially considering the most recent chapter, this all may more probably be just a coincidence. Perhaps I'm just getting paranoid.

Oh, well, just thought I should bring this up,

4

Yeah. This figures. My friend whom showed me the series is a /tg/er and I found out about this supposed forum stuff all of two hours ago.

Apparently from what I can gather, it started off as an idea for a raid, and now it just seems they want to RP by their rules, just as non-drow races.

As far as internet raids go, this looks fairly passive.

edited 18th Mar '10 12:43:07 PM by Twittly

My two cents on this comic: I only ever read the first chapter of Drowtales, before I was appalled enough by the Sueness of the heroine and the almost-literal puppy-kicking (well, kitten-kicking) of her evil sister to quit reading.

If the retcon removes these elements, I might give it another shot: I like drow, and the art is good, IMO. I worry that what I read was the post-retcon version, though...

Well it's hard to say, because if I remember correctly, kitten-wise, the retconned version is worse.

But at least, Ariel's sueness has been diminished: she's now just as sue as any other Drow. However, you'll probably have to read more than one chapter, 'cause chapters are the base units for Rotating Arcs.

Thanks for the heads-up.

The first arc is an incredibly small part of the story.

I followed it on /tg/ and cutting out the obvious trolling/spam this is what happened. 1.Basic complaining on the setting and how Sue the drow are 2. Plan evolves to create a bunch of dwarves who go off to start their own village and avoid the drow. Plan is also to roll with any drow plots that might affect the dwarves 3. People start registering characters, the plan is to make unremarkable dwarves.(No uber dwarves) However, large numbers of people registering makes the forum mods paranoid and they lock registeration. DT seems to have suffered a raid from /b/ before, so no surprise. 4. DT mods find out what is going on. Currently the few people who have made dwarves are talking to the DT mods about letting them continue, no idea if this will happen.

Huh. I think that's understandable. If I heard a large number of people from 4chan were visiting my site, I'd get paranoid too.

But if what you say is true, these guys seem very...un-4chan-ish (Is that a word?)

I guess that's just /tg/'s peculiarity: They're nerdier.

The anons in charge of this are trying to make sure this stays civil. It's not a raid, it's just an RP. They want to make it like Dorf Fort, with a glorious death at the end.

Obviously I can only speak for myself, but this is my take on it. I'm one of the people that's been editing that page, and for the most part what I've been removing is natter, stuff that just isn't true or unnecessary Take Thats directed at the creative team or putting words in their mouths about which "side" they are on in terms of character (the team is actually fairly hands-off when it comes to that sort of thing). I recall one that speculated that Kern (the author) would beat his own children based on what appears in the comic, so I removed it since it was unnecessarily mean. I'm all for legitimate criticism (I've included some myself) but I've also seen quite a bit that is just plain mean. I've also been attempting to move some stuff to the character page to keep the page from getting too long.

So basically, criticize it all you want, but don't be a jerk about it. I've tried to be fairly unbiased but probably haven't totally succeeded, so by all means have a go at it if you have something to say.

edited 27th Mar '10 2:18:03 PM by Katsuhagi

Might be beating a dead horse, but I'd like to put in a few words anyway since it appears to be needed.

1. The Drowtales setting isn't meant to be balanced and fair. The fae races, particularly the drow and vanir, are more powerful than any other species. Period.

2. Mary Sue or Marty Stu refers to a character who is too perfect, doesn't have flaws (or they are endearing flaws) and doesn't make mistakes (or if he/she does, it doesn't have any consequences worth mentioning). People always like the Mary Sue, except for the antagonist, and they are always popular. It's a wish-fulfillment character.

3. The interspecies conflicts are not the central theme. I've seen the term "elf supremacists" bandied around along with the Mary Sue term. I can't answer for the fans, but this is not the case for the creator team. Drowtales aim to explore/portray primarily the internal life and strife among the drow in a time of violent change. Also to portray a society where people can use magic and sometimes live for a very long time, to the point of near immortality. Drow are not portrayed as long-lived, beautiful and more powerful than everyone else because "elves are awesome". It's a fact of life, like the planet having nine moons, mushroom bear gets you drunk and wolf shit stinks. Yes, if you're a non-fae, things are going to suck. Deal with it. You can always try to keep away, or engage in peaceful contact with the drow or vanir, like trading.

Furthermore, just because the elves are more powerful doesn't mean they are better people. The comic should show that clearly to anyone who bothers to read it. If anything, the "might makes right" philosophy of their society makes them more akin to the greek and norse gods than any saints or angels. After all, their society is harsh against the ugly, racist (both within and outside their species), sexist, violent, intolerant and rife with slavery of all kinds. However, the fae are also kind, loyal, merciful, caring, tolerant and have a sense of humour. It's not that the elves are "better" in any way. They are people, just more powerful than the other people who share their planet. Top of the food chain, apex predators, call it whatever you will. The drow are not in charge because they are more awesome or cool, they are in charge because as a whole they are tougher, meaner bastards who caries a bigger stick than everybody else. A bit like humans IRL.

Which incidentally has a significant impact on their society. The underworld is scarce in resources compared to the surface that they had to develop strict rules for warfare to prevent it from destroying themselves, as even the victor wouldn't have enough left to survive in the long run. The drow do not live in a vacuum, they do interact with the other species, but the central theme is and always has been their internal strife.

However, people seem to completely disregard what the comic aims to portray and instead focus on "it's imbalanced, they are too powerful, it sucks". It's true that it's imbalanced, but focusing on the power level and interaction between the species means you have missed the entire point of the comic. The title of the comic is Exactly What It Says on the Tin.

edited 17th Apr '10 12:15:34 PM by suntiger745

That does not stop it from being galling. The Drow dealing with the aftermath of an external faction throwing a wrecking ball into their superiority philosophy would be far more interesting. Even MORE change. Go Dorfs.

Heh, well all they have to do is completely re-write the story and worldsetting to do that. ;)

However, while the comic is unbalanced I don't see how that prevents the other species to be cool too. Vaelia is a good example. A "mere" emberi who has had a fairly significant role for Ariel.

The dvergars who attacked the Sarghress caravan were pretty cool too. Sure, they had to use hit and run tactics because they are at a disadvantage once the element of surprise is lost but they're hardly pushovers.

Also, put it this way. Keep the abilities but change the species around and put the dvergars as the dominant one (making the dvergars the only ones who can use magic). Would the worldsetting still bother you or would it be awesome? The question is; do you object to the premise of the setting itself, or is it just that it was elves that was picked to be the species highest in the food chain that bothers you?

Finally, if you prefer a setting where interspecies conflicts are the focus you are looking at the wrong story. It's like complaining that there aren't any women in The Misfit Brigade. That is not what you will find in Drowtales. However, that is the focus in a huge number of other stories and comics, so you should easily be able to find one that suits your preferences.

edited 24th May '10 1:34:39 AM by suntiger745

Today's comic: Greaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat. Now Ariel gets another psychotic sister (well, half-sister). And not just any psychotic, the one that spearheaded the distraction attack...