Type-Moon: Fate/stay night, Tsukihime, and Kara no Kyoukai discussion

I liked Zero and Unlimited Blade Works so the source material of this franchise peeks my interest. Didn't the original have, to put it lightly, "questionable" elements? That alone makes me pessimistic.

The remaster is for Realta Nua, the sfw version with no r-18 scenes

There were sex scenes, yeah. They didn't fit into the narrative very well for the most part, but they were also a very small part of the overall word count.

The sex scenes were just hilarious.

Edited by Shlugo_the_great on Jan 31st 2024 at 9:15:10 AM

This is quite ironic considering the questionable elements in Zero itself (I especially remember the manga being uncomfortably graphic for no reason).

For what is worth, the original VN isn't as problematic as Tsukihime was from what I remember.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.

What's problematic about Tsukihime? I haven't read it or watched the anime adaptation.

Someone other than Nasu wrote the sex scenes in the original Tsukihime, so the sex scenes turn Shiki into a wildly out of character rapist.

Of course, there's the whole Sakura stuff in FSN as well, so I wouldn't really call it "less" problematic.

Edited by darksidevoid on Feb 1st 2024 at 7:18:59 AM

GM of AGOG S4: Frontiers RP; Sub-GM of TABA, SOTR, & UUA RPs

We're not supposed to think the things that happen to Sakura are acceptable or normal.

Song of the Sirens

I would argue that cobbling together a character backstory and motivations out of hentai tropes and presenting it as a serious story is still problematic, even if we the readers aren't meant to think of it as acceptable or normal.

GM of AGOG S4: Frontiers RP; Sub-GM of TABA, SOTR, & UUA RPs

I mean, honestly, Sakura's issues really don't just boil down to 'she got raped.' She was already in a terrible mental state well before that. It actually feels kind of minor compared to the rest of it.

Tsukihime mixes the character going insane with sex scenes on multiple occasions. It's not very fun for anyone involved.

Edited by Arha on Feb 1st 2024 at 6:34:43 AM

the sex scenes in FSN are an issue because they're hilariously poorly written and turn a VN that's largely filled with women being badasses into a man having hot sex with hot women

the stuff with Sakura is very YMMV in terms of how it handles her story of sexual violence and her view of her body because of it, but what she goes through is very much portrayed as a horrible thing (my opinion is that the movie got it perfectly right, the VN is a bit more iffy)

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

Hey don't you lie to him. That is completely untrue. FSN's sex scenes are not hot.

Edited by Arha on Feb 1st 2024 at 6:37:21 AM

my bad, i meant incredibly awkward cringe sex which isn't too far off from how high school relations really are.

Edited by EpicBleye on Feb 1st 2024 at 7:37:06 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

Some of the Shinji stuff really does leave one scratching their head. "Aside the whole rape thing and all the horrid baggage of being a Matou he's mostly a standup guy, I swear!"

Granted it's partly from Shirou's biased pov(very biased) but...

Edited by alekos23 on Feb 1st 2024 at 2:38:52 PM

Secret Signature

I do think Rin and Shirou's first few times having sex being incredibly awkward and uncomfortable is the most realistic thing in the series

Song of the Sirens

Nasu did read shoujo manga in his youth I wouldn’t be surprise if manga he read had an influence on his depiction of Shinji.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 1st 2024 at 4:46:29 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

i kinda get it. i think he's supposed to be paralleling Zouken: somebody who used to be a good person but magic rotted away their soul until they became irredeemably evil (with Zouken it being literal soul rot, and with Shinji it being magus society and generational expectations).

and his story being about how much being a mage ruins people and rots them to their core and makes good people into terrible people makes sense as a character arc in FSN.

but like. maybe we shouldn't try that with a sister rapist, and maybe we should have seen some of his good qualities first.

instead it just reads as Shirou having a really, really bad judge of character.

Edited by EpicBleye on Feb 1st 2024 at 7:53:49 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

Calling it OOC feels debatable when the remake deliberately maintains the blurred subtext of Shiki's initial approach to Arc.

---

The Shinji discourse is going to be fun when people realize that Realta Nua's script is different.

Sure, they keep the sexual subtext (supertext? overtext?) during the part where he stalks and kills Arc at the beginning of their story, but it's made very clear in the pov narration that Shiki's losing his mind at that point and isn't in control of himself. The sex scenes aren't written that way at all.

GM of AGOG S4: Frontiers RP; Sub-GM of TABA, SOTR, & UUA RPs

Shinji reminds me a lot of that one dude from Utena. They even look kinda similar.

Song of the Sirens

That’s why I was thinking of as well, but that’s more the anime than manga as I haven’t read the latter.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 1st 2024 at 9:26:56 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

You're thinking about Saionji. Nasu explicitly mentioned in an interview that the hair was based of him, but Shinji as a character is kind of a blatantly cobbled together mix of him and Akio (he's worse than both narratively though)

Yeah I'm currently playing the remake and the scene goes from love at first sight to incredibly rapey to violent murder super fast.

Also I don't know how much of it is in the original Tsukihime but the fandisk does use "lmao this character is acting like a rapist but they got foiled" for Arihiko and Nanako story, something that Nasu still very much has not shaken off as recently as lostbelt 6.

I absolutely cannot help but adore handsome 2D boys

I was kind of excited when I heard about the Switch version, but then I remembered that I'd seen the Heaven's Feel movies and wasn't very impressed.

The fight scenes were amazing, but there's not going to be anything like that in the VN. The characters were... Okay, mostly? Shirou and Rin weren't bad, but weren't anything special.

It felt like a lot of the plot was Magi Babble that added together still didn't make a lot of sense. Like, there's the Holy Grail but it's not really the Holy Grail it's Dagda's cooking pot, the Holy Grail war was created in an attempt to become immortal, and the bad guy is using it to summon Ahriman. I'm not sure how any of those parts fit together.

Zouken died three times. I'm not sure how that worked, and I'm not sure why you'd do that from a writing perspective.

The philosophy of Heavens Feel, for as much as I've heard it praised, is something I've grown pretty cyclical about; as I understand, it's basically "You have no moral obligations to anybody you don't personally know", which strikes me as sophomoric, and "if you care about everybody, it's really the same as caring about nobody". And then it turned out that was barely a thing in the movie, so it wasn't important either way.

So... Did I miss something? Were these movies not a good adaptation of the story? I love seeing King Arthur throw down with Cu Chulainn and Hercules, but apparently as far as the story is concerned, that's a afterthought.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.

yes you did, the VN gives out more info on stuff that the anime lacks in.

After 10 year plus years I have the confidence to be here. Let's give it EVERYTHING we've got! It's...PUNISHMENT TIME