Asexual Joker

Well the Joker is pretty much asexual (to Harley's lament). He shows no real interest. Nor does he do crimes that have sexual elements to them. But why? He really has no reason to limit himself. One interpretation of the Joker is that he's funny, but in a way that crosses the line twice. Much like dead baby comedy. But he restricts himself to just mass murder and petty crimes.

The recent Joker book brought some of this to the Joker but in my opinion it didn't work. Or rather, it worked for the Joker in that story but doesn't work for the main Joker.

But still, the Joker is there to make us laugh and then hate ourselves for doing so. What's other people's thoughts?

As far as I know there doesn't have to be a reason for people to be asexual. There are some that are that way because of abuse or other issues, but as far as I know most of them just exist, like people of any other orientation.

You mention the latest Joker book, which makes me wonder if you read this page?

Yep, and I think they work in that story where the Joker is not all he's cracked up to be. He's a flawed chracter. But the Joker in the mainstream continuity has very few flaws and seems to always be in control of himself, even when he's out of control. He very rarely breaks down. And he doesn't need anybody (except Batman). In fact he doesn't really need anything and doesn't do evil except for the evluls.

However, I definatly think the Joker is above rape, as rapists do it for the sense of power and the Joker is not short on that. Or rather, if he did, it wouldn't be because he needed to get back at someone or just be evil, it'd be cause it was funny.

Yeah, he'd only do it if it were funny. Like ripping out someone's rib bone, raping them with it, and saying, "Ribbed for her pleasure."

edited 3rd Nov '10 4:23:26 AM by RavenWilder

I believe the Joker isn't interested by anything sexual because of two things:

1- He doesn't need it. It's not funny, it's not clever, it won't make him feel powerful, and he doesn't need a little brat. He might also consider it a basic animal function.

2- The Joker isn't able to feel any attachement to anyone enough to say he wants to be intimate. And being a total nutcase, I'm pretty sure all the libido centers of his brain are shut off. There just no place in his distorted mind for such things has affection, love or even plain lust.

Those two things are why any portrayal of the Joker as a sexual predator doesn't sit well with me (ASBAR, I'm looking at you)

However, I think that Harley is wild card here. In the versions when the Joker might love her back in some way (my favorite versions), such as the first arc of Gotham City Sirens,Harley is the person that knows the Joker the best, even more than himself. Thus, he is in some way close to her, and that might manifest in a physical fashion. I wish the day-to-day of their relationship, including the sex part (not necessarily explicitly- I don't wanna see the sex, but I would like it to be talked about), was explored more, preferably in an out-of-continuity story, but I doubt it ever will. But yes, I'm pretty sure Harley and the Joker "did it" sometimes, be it only because Harley probably need some physical grafication to make up for all the abuses.

And believe or not, I think a in-depth story exploring the relationship between Harley and The Joker could be very romantic. Sick, twisted, awful and not to wish to anyone, but still romantic.

edited 3rd Nov '10 7:42:05 AM by collex

Strictly speaking, it isn't just the Joker: comics fans typically dislike any character who is portrayed as a sexual deviant. Of course, the Joker is a more beloved and iconic character, so the standard is even higher, but it still holds true in most cases. Example: Doctor Light.

The problem I have with the above scenario is that the Joker simply isn't being funny. As has been said in the past, the Joker's job is to make the audience laugh and then feel ashamed of themselves afterwards. That entire scene above is just horrific—there's nothing there to make me believe I'm reading about the Joker any more than Billy Joe, the Redneck Rapist.

However, I do not think that it's fair to say that sexual deviance is something the Joker "would never do": he'd do anything for the sake of dark humor. And before you say rape CAN'T be funny, remember that we have a trope which disputes that.

It,s not something he would never do, but I don't think it's something he would actually care about. I think he would see that as low-brow humour. The Joker just seems too wild for something "mundane" as a sex joke. He would do it if it was the most funny thing to do, sure, but I doubt he would place himself in the position where the most funny thing to do is to rape someone.

Maybe it has to do with me not wanting to see a character turned into a sexual deviant, but really, who wants to see any characters be a sexual deviant unless he was introduced as such? Maybe Alan Moore but that's it;)

edited 3rd Nov '10 10:48:12 AM by collex

I'd expect a joke done by him not to be funny, but to be based of a joke people do fun funny. eg, your mum jokes. It makes him a monster, but also us too for funny the original jokes funny.

But anyway, I am glad that this aspect of the Joker is not explored. It can be a powerful element to a story, but would become less powerful over time. Eg, Dr Light, he crosses the moral event horizon, and then gets flanderised so much that the Flash starts cracking jokes about him. Ugh. So it's better that it isn't explored except hypothetically.

That's a huge blanket statement, rape can be about plenty of things.

I still think it really depends on who's writing him... meh, I dunno if I can say much more because I'm not that familiar with Joker.

edited 3rd Nov '10 3:00:24 PM by melloncollie

Well, Melloncollie, what are considered the codifiers of the Joker's personality (at least in modern day) are The Killing Joke by Alan Moore and The Dark Knight by Christopher Nolan.

The Joker is legitimately crazy, so there's really no accounting for actual "motivations", but in general, he seems to have an "Ararchist" bent with the belief that Anarchy Is Chaos. His only consistent theme is the belief that life is just one big joke, and that he himself is some sort of genius revolutionary thinker who is the pinnacle of mankind. As such, he usually attempts to convert others to his way of thinking—sometimes through mass panic and hysteria (as in Dark Knight) or sometimes by picking one person of Incorruptible Pure Pureness and destroying their sanity (also in Dark Knight). Because of this, his favorite targets are usually Batman, Superman, Commissioner Gordon, and their immediate friends and families.

edited 3rd Nov '10 4:16:42 PM by KingZeal

^ I'm very familiar with that version, but I've heard very often "that Joker isn't classic Joker, your argument is invalid." Classic Joker I am not familiar with at all.

But anyway, going from your post, I don't see how any of that would indicate that it would be out of character for Joker to rape someone. Hell, if his schtick is to break the good people I think rape would be a very useful tool.

There's no such thing as "Classic Joker". The Joker was conceived as a murdering psychopath from the very beginning. The Joker only became a harmless bank robber after the Comics Code was imposed. The Joker shown in the two afore-mentioned stories are as faithful to the original concept as anything.

When the Joker say breaking someone, he emans turning him into a freak like him. Rape won,t really do that. And rape is too easy for the Joker. It's not clever, it's not grandiose. The Joker is a showman. He likes spectacles. Any bum can rape someone. Why would The Joker lower himself to the level of a lowly bum.

Also, there is the never mentionned, but easily Fan Wanked matter that acid is not necessary the best thing in the book for your Family Jewels.

I... sort of see. Which interpretation are we supposed to use?

How do you know rape won't do that? Again, there are no grand universals when it comes to rape. People react to trauma in different ways. I suppose it's not likely that rape alone would be enough, but I don't see why Joker wouldn't use it as a tool, as part of some other plan.

You make Joker out almost as if he were The Fettered, which looks really odd to me. But what do I know.

Acid? So there is a canon origin story for him?

edited 3rd Nov '10 5:39:07 PM by melloncollie

No there isn't. The only thing that's consistent is that he fell into a vat of "chemicals". Not necessarily acid.

Also, interpretation? What do you mean, exactly?

I don't know which version of Joker is more "correct" or whatever. The original, pre-comics code Joker versus the clown Joker without "deep" motives that a lot of people seem to like better.

Is the chemicals thing canon as well? I thought the consensus was Multiple-Choice Past...

edited 3rd Nov '10 6:30:26 PM by melloncollie

You mean Silver Age goofy Joker? If you mean the current psychopathic Joker, then I say they're the same character. As I said before his "motives" are pretty ambiguous. It could be that he's bullshitting everybody and he's just making excuses to do crazy shit.

Yes, he has abmultiple choice past, but the vat of chemical is pretty much the only canon thing about it. It explais the green hair and white skin. How iy happened exactly is part of the Multiple choice, but the chemical thing (which I always refer to as acid, but you can all it anything)is widely accepted. Or at least that's the impression I got, correct me if I'm wrong.

As for The Fettered comment, no, not at all. It's not because the Joker has values and principles that he wouldn't commit rape, it's because the Joker, in very simplistic term, obey completly to the Rule of Cool and Rule of Funny. His crimes are spectacles. They must be grandiose. Rape is not grandiose, at least usually.

Ever read The Dark Knight Return? That's probably the best exemple I can give of a typical Joker's crime: it's big, shocking and televised to millions of people. I'm not saying I would be completly Joker commiting sex crimes, but they better have a real good reason for it. Really good. Or, as I said, I wouldbe interested in a story exploring the more intimate (and yes, physical) aspect of his day to day relationship with Harley.

Again, that is entirely my opinion. Not everyone will agree with me. Yes, maybe the only reason why the Joker doesn't commit sex crimes is that his comics are usually, at most, rated PG-13. That's the pragmatic reason, but as I see it, it makes sense in universe too. If you want to see how far the Joker could go in term of sexual deviancy, read Comic/Wanted and pay attention to the Mr. Rictus character who, of his own admission, makes love to goats. It's a funny bit, and make for a great character, but it's not really appropriate for the Joker.

EDIT — A Bout that scan at of Joker (wich I was able to access just now), I like the first scene because it shows some intimacy between Harley and Joker. Is there more things like this in this in the GN? but the second scene just feels weird to me, for all the reasons I explained.

edited 3rd Nov '10 7:32:38 PM by collex

I think "Joker rape" would only work if done by a writer who deeply understands his audience and knows how to tell a story with it.

Personally, I could see the Joker doing something like getting Harley to entice a corrupt Arkham guard and then, when that guard goes into her cell (illegally) to get a little blond lovin', he's knocked out. Then he wakes up in the cell with an insane, man-hungry female inmate who uses him as her new toy.

You have to remember that, right or wrong, there are different standards which apply to various kinds of rape. The above scenario will likely be overlooked because the audience will see the corrupt guard as an Acceptable Target, the actual rape is done offscreen, and it's girl-on-guy.

Other than that, I agree that only a certain breed of writer could make it work.

edited 3rd Nov '10 8:10:07 PM by KingZeal

^^ I hadn't thought of that. ie, the Joker always goes for flashy spectacles. That's a good reason why not.

And yeah, that's the thing about the Joker. He's supposed to be all crazy and inconsistent. Grant Morrison brought in the whole 'super sanity' thingy to explain that.

I think the best way to approach the subject in a comic would to have him make an offhand joke only for fridge horror to set in later. eg, a 'your mum' joke. It'd seem lame-funny until a character has a moment of fridge horror.

^^ Not merely girl-on-guy, but Dr. Harleen fucking Quinzell on random schmoe. That's the kind of rape where I wouldn't be at all surprised if the dude were into it, or called a pussy by his fellows if he weren't.

(Aaaaand now I'm having visions of a Prose Portal business that sell tickets to nerds for entry to that particular scene wearing a guard uniform. If the original guard is easy to bribe, think of the killing he'd make indulging the fanboys and getting out of work early for the night.)

(... and now I'm imagining what the ink-suit actors do when stuff fades to black.

'Harley': Hey, is that the new Stephen King?

'Guard Number 2': Yeah; almost done if y'wanna read it on the next pass-through.

'Harley': Oh, thanks, Mark. *goes back to knitting*

'Guard Number 2': How's the sweater coming?)

edited 6th Nov '10 1:04:07 PM by FurikoMaru

A True Lady's Quest - A Jojo is You!

Now THAT is something I don't think Harley would do. Aside from Mistah Jay (and, in some fandom, Poison Ivy), Harley doesn't whore herself. She'll tease, but that's about it.

edited 6th Nov '10 1:01:33 PM by KingZeal

Dini (in other word, Harley,s daddy) said he sees the relationship between Harley and Ivy as sexual, at least at some points, ad that's how he write it, but he doesn't really care if you don,t want to see it that way. He's very open on this topic; he doesn't force you to accept his Word of God. I think there is something going on, if only for the fact that Harley is probably Ivy last link to humanity, but the exact nature of it is unimportant.

You,re right, though, Harley is't a whore. That,s one thing she wouldn't do, even for her puddin'. I remember the Mask/Joker crossover where the Masked Joker "fires" Harley and hire two Barbies instead. Harley is not only icredibly pissed off, but she remark this is one thing she'll never lower herself to do (become a bimbo), and she can't believe Mr. J did it.

Fine with me. I like the version in Joker more. He's crazier.

Well, I haven't given much thought to sexual deviance  ^*

, but I definitely want to see a lot more villains portrayed as not being above rape. I want to see more Attempted Rape, more rape as Offstage Villainy, more of the looming threat of rape in I Have You Now, My Pretty scenarios, etc. More acknowledgment that rape actually exists as something that isn't just engaged in by over-the-top misogynists like Doctor Psycho and over-the-top rape fetishists like Doctor Light. \\
Sabretooth and the Purple Man are good examples of comic book rapists, IMO. They've committed rape, but it doesn't define them; rather, it fits into their overall character. One's a bestial, totally unrestrained, psychopathic sadist, and the other's a mind controller who routinely treats people like objects. Rape is just one of the many things those sorts of villains are liable to do. There are other sorts who could be incidental rapists, like the various muscular thuggish underlings without much personality beyond The Brute, rank and file Mooks, and the occasional Psycho for Hire.

I could imagine Joker raping someone as part of a joke, but to preserve his relative asexuality, it feels more appropriate for him to have his mooks do the deed, or some trained hyenas, or an elaborate machine, or his victims themselves (in a sort of Sadistic Choice scenario). At the very least, rape should be something he's willing to joke about. I mean, Family Guy should not have a darker sense of humor than the Joker. Ideally, anyway. Of course, in practical terms, writers on a mainstream comic book franchise can't afford to dance as close to the line between Crosses the Line Twice and Dude, Not Funny! as Family Guy's writers can.

Rapist are for me deviant in a sense that rape is not, and should never be, a normal sexual practice. It's the same as pedophilia and bestiality in my book. Bu technically, I assume you,re right, the term deviant probably doesn't apply.

I agree that most villain are probably not above rape, but I still think that story about supervillain rape is not something I, and many people I'm sure, would want to read on a regular basis. And that,s mostly why comic-books company don,t do this kind of storyline very often - not many people want to read it.

As for the Joker, I don,t think he would bat an eye if his mooks decided to rape an hostage or something while he's busy elsewhere, but I don,t think he'll be interested to watch. He would prepare a surprise for the Bat instead.