Badass Israeli: should this still be a thing?

I feel like Badass Israeli is tropeworthy because of how it diverges from how Jews are typically portrayed in American Media, though Badass tropes are chronically misused. If this does go to TRS, maybe we could change it to Tough Israeli or Elite Israeli.

Agree with the two above me: Badass Israeli is a stereotype that shows up in media, same as (among others) Mother Russia Makes You Strong. It's not just "tough character + random nationality" (and if there are examples like that, they should be cut), it's a deliberate connection that a work draws.

I wonder if Evil Israeli could be a trope too, considering the description explicitly mentions this (along with there being subverted and averted examples on the page):

Given the controversial nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, expect this trope to be heavily headed towards The Fundamentalist types in many modern examples, especially if the author is Palestinian or Lebanese.

It's also worth considering that due to the IDF conscripting both men and women it's not uncommon for a female character in military media which uses a Multinational Team to be an Isreali Action Girl. (Even though very few IDF women conscript actually end up in combat roles in real life). I think that is tropable and is an element of the trope.

There is certainly scope for negative tropes about a national stereotype - as mentioned, we already have things like Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkeys.

But this would depend on media turning it into a recurring trope. And then we'd go via TLP.

It we don't have plenty of examples, it's not gonna happen.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 29th 2024 at 11:59:05 AM

I agree it's tropeable, but the name isn't indicative. It's about Israeli soldiers or ex-soldiers being very capable and well trained, right? So I would suggest Elite Israeli Soldier.

I am with Miss Conduct on this; unless this specifically involves national stereotypes, I don’t see it as different from a hypothetical “Badass American” or “Badass Brit” or whatnot. Really, quite a bit of “Badass X” tropes had to be cut or reworked because we deemed “badass who is also x” to be People Sit on Chairs a lot of the time.

This does involve stereotypes, though? It's an idea carried on from the 6 day war I think, where Israel took on multiple armies and won in a week. That combined with mandatory military service means that the Israeli people are often stereotyped as tough.

Agree. This isn't just "badass + [arbitrary nationality]", it's a pattern that shows up in fiction.

& Agreed.

And it's not unique in that, as other countries do have similar tropes. But each of them is rooted in particular historical events or cultural stereotypes, and each gets used a lot in fiction. They're not interchangeable.

I think the problem is definitely the name - Badass Israeli makes it sound like a snowclone of other Badass tropes.

I agree, the name isn't brilliant.

I think if this gets a rename it should hint more at the "obvious training aspect" as a subversion of Ambiguously Trained. So something like Tough As Old Kibbutz or Inexplicably Indestructible Israelis.

i liked Elite Isreali Soldier, or something else that directly involves the IDF, as that's a key component of the stereotype

I don't see a need to rename unless the examples show issues.

Agreed. We do not rename tropes unless they're taken to TRS.

...Well, it would go to TRS if people wanted to rename it. I just don't think there's a point.

I mean I don't think it should either, just brainstorming catchy titles for the trope in general

So what other tropes involve people from other nationalities stereotyped as badass soldiers?

Scots are covered by Brave Scot, and Serbs tend to be stereotyped as Balkan Bastards.

Edited by Negacube on Feb 6th 2024 at 5:18:30 AM

And there's Awesome Aussie. And others, as per the National Stereotypes list.

But the Israeli one specifically has military connotations, which is one of the reasons why they're not simply interchangeable/ chairs, imo.

But, also even if there wasn't another example of this, it wouldn't make Badass Israeli any less tropeworthy.

The problem was a number of tropes like Badass Gay that tried connecting two concepts but never landed on anything significant, a character being gay was neither a common association with badass or a common twist on a badass. Hence the disambig page specifies Agent Peacock that leans more towards Camp Gay as a badass.

The same thing can be applied to certain other qualities, such as Magical Native American associating Native Americans as enlightened and spiritual if not explicitly magical next to other characters.