How much communication is too much in a Points of Light Setting?,

I was wondering just how much communication between settlements can there be in a Pointsof Light Setting before it no longer becomes a Pointsof Light Setting? Just what would be considered the limit?

Based on a quick scan of the trope page, basically zero.

what do you mean by that?

I doubt that there's a hard, objective limit.

But the basic idea, I think, is that as soon as there's reasonably-available reasonably-fast communication, it's no longer a "Points of Light Setting".

What constitutes "reasonably-available, reasonably-fast" is somewhat ill-defined.

I suppose that a rule of thumb might be this: if people are likely to be able to communicate distress to other settlements while the trouble is still fresh, then it's probably not "Points of Light".

(Naturally, this is just a rule of thumb. The occasional wizard getting a once-off message out by crystal ball is probably fine.)

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Jan 6th 2024 at 11:14:53 AM

The basic idea is that settlements are remote and solitary, and basically all on their own. The page description uses a good example of a settlement being wiped out without anyone the wiser.

So basically, the maximum speed of communication is someone outrunning whatever danger exists. If there's easy radio, you already can organize in a way that defies the idea of the setting. The speed limit of information is Man on a horse, basically.

I hate to break this to you, but the Grand Line in One Piece is considered a Pointsof Light Setting and there is instant communication in the series so that clearly doesn't invalidate whether or not something is a Pointsof Light Setting.

Edited by Drakath51 on Jan 7th 2024 at 1:54:32 AM

Not familiar with the example, but the main thing I think of for a Points-of-Light setting is not communications technology but availability of travel - you may be able to send a message instantly to the nearest town, but they're still so far away that someone who leaves as soon as they hear from you still won't arrive for weeks at least.

However, talking between settlements probably also shouldn't be something people can do casually - more like a telegraph office than the internet, both in terms of how accessible the devices are and how many people have learned to use them, and how likely it is that a pole fell over in the middle of nowhere and someone needs to form the Fellowship of the Semaphore just to go out and repair it.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Jan 7th 2024 at 12:48:28 PM

scale is also a factor. When talking with space oepra and similar forms of sci-fi where interstellar travel is commonplace, a planet's cities and towns would be disqualified as such but the planet itself would still qualify if the dangers to it are appropriatly scaled.

I wouldn't say that any communication is too much. There can still be trade and travel to a limited extent (that's part of what the protagonists do, after all). What there shouldn't be is overarching powers capable of maintaining the roads and keeping the peace. Instant communication means that there has to be another reason why the various points of light maintain their own unique cultures (thus providing Wacky Wayside Tribe fodder aplenty) and why individual settlements are on their own in trouble.

One case of a world with widespread instant communication that's still a Points of Light Setting is Red Markets. Yeah, the Internet is still up and resilient to destruction. There's trade between enclaves, as well as a currency backed by what's left of the US. But western America is still a Zombie Apocalypse, and each enclave is one concealed bite away from hell. There's no government beyond the enclave level, and the US government considers you something between an illegal immigrant and another zombie. Each enclave has its own unique quirks shaped by its location, by what the locals had to do to survive, and by whatever local madman, cult or ideology has become dominant. And there's plenty of scavengeable ruins for your crew of assholes to plunder or die trying.

it's IMHO an extremely weak example. Just looking through the list, i think only 3 or 4 of the 16 points apply, and even then it's only confined to an extremely limited location - the rest of the world is not a Point of Lights setting at all, and even the Grand Line itself has been colonized to a heavy degree.

Some of the other examples are also bizarre, and make me think the trope is fairly confused about what exactly it's supposed to be.

but also: (emphasis mine)

So per the trope page, even though Instant Communication should disqualify One Piece, a region kinda works like this and so it still applies.

Anyway, if your only ask is that you have a region of your setting that fills the Point of Lights trope, you can do basically anything. But if your whole setting is supposed to be a Point of Lights setting, then obviously instant long-range communication is a big no no.

Edited by devak on Jan 8th 2024 at 6:33:40 PM

More often than not, a Points of Light Setting is a region of a larger world, or at least there's areas that aren't that kind of setting. After all, The Wild West tends to be presented as such in fiction.

If there is instant communication, of course, there needs to be a reason why some kind of larger polity isn't a thing.

I... disagree with that notion. A lot of wild west stories take place entirely and exclusively in the wild west. Technically a larger world exists yes, but the setting isn't that world...it's the wild west that is the setting. And within that setting, settlements are far from each other with a wild west in between.

Otherwise basically every setting is a Points of Light setting if it doesn't describe the greater world, solar system, galaxy, andsoforth.

...yes? That's what I said. A Points of Light Setting is usually a region of a larger world, and it's less common to portray the entire world as a Points of Light Setting (some exceptions apply).

Similarly, All Planets Are Earthlike generally only applies to the planets that the story visits, but since other planets which might not be earthlike aren't actually part of the story then it's kind of irrelevant.

If the story is set entirely in the Wild West, then the existence of other parts of the world which are tame or eastern is theoretical. The entire setting is still Points-of-Light.

My point is that this statement doesn't mean anything. Every wild west story presumably takes place in the Milky Way galaxy, inside the universe. It doesn't mean anything if you say a setting is a region of a larger world, all stories are. The only way not to is if either your story covers the entire universe or your universe is the size of a house.

The trope to me seems to be fairly confused about what exactly it's trying to be, especially if you first read the long list of features and then see Star Wars and One Piece listed alongside The Dark Forest.

Edited by devak on Jan 10th 2024 at 9:13:21 PM

I’d wager there’s no real communication limit to define the setting. But rather the relative isolation of inhabitants and their settlements.

To use the Star Wars example from the trope page, you can call somebody in real time on the other side of the galaxy on the equivalent of a cellphone or CB radio but settlements and planets can be isolated to the point of absolute autonomy and security despite a literal Galactic Empire for part of the setting’s history.

World of Warcraft has similar at least in its early expansions. Magical communication or other quick transport (by gryphon) are common but towns and settlements are mostly to their own devices because it would take days to weeks to reinforce or defend with regular armies.

It does seem like the trope could stand to be narrowed down a bit.

I'm going to opine that when the antagonist attacks a settlement, is there time to call for reinforcements? If yes, then the setting isn't points of light. If no, then it could be.

At what scale though? Today could be considered points of light type setting under various circumstances. For example, aliens invade Alaska, it would be weeks or months before a serious organized effort to counterattack or reinforce the place happens. Despite real time communications in radio, phone or internet.

But what about a place like France? Where things are seldom longer than a day’s horseback ride away even nearing the border. A village could send a runner warning nearby places of attack in a matter of hours, a rider could reach Paris in maybe a couple days and within weeks at most a response would be mustered even if this was a thousand years ago.

I think the distinction is whether or not a setting is “on their own” with regards to immediate things. If you can’t do things like call the police, fire department, national guard or military or Legion of Superheroes or what have you and have them respond in a reasonable to realistic timeframe, it may qualify as a points of light setting. If you can’t do it at all, it definitely qualifies.

Asking for reinforcements is fine, but actually expecting the reinforcements to arrive in time is not. This adds to the horror of Points of Light in that you can see another Point being torn appart but can't do anything about it.

True. It's time to arrival that matters. Excellent source of dramatic tension.

I got the impression that it wasn't communication that mattered, but the idea that travel between settlements was dangerous. I think that would hinder couriers and possibly telegraphs. Whatever travelers there would be, would probably carry letters and news. Forms of communication that require an infrastructure outside of the settlements wouldn't work.

I don't think the Wild West is depicted as a Point of Light setting. The towns are often depicted having postal service (which also transported people) and a train. There are also several open range ranches near the town. Sure the space in-between is depicted as empty space, but the town can be as dangerous as the countryside.

The trope has been bothering me ever since i got to this thread but i think the only real answer from the trope page is that it's all three.

To be a bit more concise, it's actually confused itself into three different tropes. A metaphorical Points of Light setting, a practical Point of Lights setting, and a D&D setting referred to as Points of light.

metaphorical POL means that each settlement is effectively a beacon of light in unknowable darkness. Zero communication is basically a necessity, or at the very least any danger can not be slower than the means of communication. Roughly covers points 1-5 of the trope page. A classic case would be the protagonist fleeing a great danger to a new safe haven, only to discover the danger got there first. A lighthouse in a sea of darkness metaphor, hence my description.

practical POL in this context means The world lacks wide-spreading organizations or groups that could claim any sort of authority and actually enforce it. The world is fragmented and disorganized. Powerful communication can exist, and threats may be absent. But locations are just dots scattered on a map, with no coherent whole to form them. This covers basically points 6 and onward.

D&D setting here means an adventuring setting where the writer establishes certain points of interests to tell a story but otherwise doesn't elaborate on what's in between so you can do adventuring there. This isn't really covered in any of the bullet points but is basically the actual intention of the trope.

Notably, a metaphorical POL setting requires pretty much no communication to maintain the sense of dread and the sea of monsters. There's a fairly narrow window IMHO where you can have "strong" communication, namely when its already too late. Attack on Titan, at least in its early incarnation, fits this trope

A practical POL setting doesn't demand "weak" communication, but each setting is politically or practically still largely on their own. Lord of The Rings does make some sense in this context.

A D&D version requires neither, actually. You can have a strong communication, strong political unity story and still only really talk about the major locations on the way. It's common in wuxia stories, but this is also where i'd argue the One Piece story fits. The only thing that really matters is that the world is made of conveniently adventure-sized islands that are just isolated enough that nobody is going to *immediately* bother you, but also not so isolated that you have to learn a whole new language. Also, people can still bother you if they were already looking for you here. Also also instant communication exists and there's a world government.

Edited by devak on Jan 21st 2024 at 8:05:41 PM

I'm not sure that the "metaphorical points of light" case necessarily requires limited communication—although that would enhance it.

Instead, I would argue that it primarily requires that communication cannot emerge from the "darkness".

That is, if there is fast communication, it only connects the "points": City A can talk to City B, but someone in the wilds between cannot talk to either.

That way the wilds between "points" remain a danger that no-one can save you from, a place for adventure and the unknown.