Misused: God Is Evil

It's probably Sadly Mythtaken. Or Everyone Hates Hades in a specific case.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 30th 2023 at 9:24:37 AM

Sadly Mythtaken outright says in the description that there's not meant to be any religious meaning behind it, it's just taking artistic liberties with religious characters. Something like, say, Shin Megami Tensei very definitely is making deliberate commentary on religions.

It did occur to me as I was tallying up the examples that there could probably be a distinction made between fictional and non-fictional god portrayals, because I do think that's probably significant in terms of social commentary. But then, is there a meaningful difference between a dead religion like the Greek pantheon and a fictional religion, and how would you classify allegories for real religions like Crystal Dragon Jesus... I guess let's just move the misused examples for now and then see what's left.

Edited by FoolsEditAccount on Sep 30th 2023 at 9:34:17 AM

I had a similar discussion with a Troper on whether Shar, and to a different extent the Absolute, from Bulder's Gate 3 counted as God Is Evil or God of Evil. I argued against the application of God Is Evil because I figured it referred to either the Abrahamic God, a monotheist god, or the Top God is evil which, to my knowledge, fit neither of the two. They argued that God of Evil doesn't quite fit as they viewed it as the god's domain being specifically evil to which they felt only Asmodeous fit. We ultimately agreed to, currently, place them under Jerkass Gods as there wasn't a trope that fit a god who's domain isn't necessarily or isn't specified as evil, but the god is.

So, can we begin example cleanup while creation of the new trope is pending?

Alright, I've moved the Rage Against the Heavens examples on the God Is Evil page itself (though haven't gotten around to checking the works pages).

Since Rage Against the Heavens was the most commonly conflated trope, perhaps we should add a line or two in the description clarifying the difference between the two?

Moving some edge cases here with my comments. Discuss.

• Subverted in Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. Kreia believes the Force to be an evil god that forces the Jedi and Sith to war with each other for eternity for its own amusement. Yet all evidence in the game and other Star Wars material pretty clearly suggests that this isn't true; even if the Force is sentient (which is debatable) than it has no influence on what mortals do with its gifts. The implication builds to be that Kreia is simply unwilling to accept her own flaws and sins, so she instead chooses to pass off the blame to some vague force in the sky. Further her stated solution to this (destroying the Force) is noted to be absolutely insane and would likely kill every living being in the galaxy since there's a trace of Force presence in all life.
  • An alternate interpretation of Kreia's beliefs is that the Force is not a god, but may as well be treated as one because it is composed of the connections that people constantly create between each other and the consequences that ripple throughout the cosmos. As for the evil part, the Jedi and Sith would, by natural selection, favor select courses of action that would strengthen the Force and therefore themselves, and since the most effective way to make varied peoples of isolated communities make interpersonal connections of politics and commerce, interest and fear, love and hatred, across distances measured in lightyears, is to instigate a war between stars... well...

This is an incredibly muddled and unclear example. "The villain says God is evil, but it's subverted because she's wrong!" "Well, actually it's up to your interpretation and it varies Depending on the Writer..." So which is it, guys?

Having played the game myself I do think it genuinely leaves it up for interpretation whether Kreia is correct in her Rage Against the Heavens, but I'm not sure if the Force is enough of a "god" to even count for any god-related tropes.

• Dragalia Lost: Xenos is a bit of a deconstruction. When he initially created the world with the help of Bahamut, he was optimistic about what humanity would be able to accomplish. These hopes would quickly be dashed, since humanity would continue to wage war on each other, end up wiping themselves out due to their stupidity, and repeatedly attack Xenos, hoping to seek his power. He wiped them out and gave them another chance time and time again, but every single time, they would end up making the exact same mistakes. Eventually, he came to the conclusion that humanity was completely a lost cause, and that the only way that they would ever prosper is if their free will was taken away from them. That is why Xenos wants to create a world where nobody gets to decide what their future is going to be like, and all of their choices are made for them, regardless of their opinions.

How is this a deconstruction?

• Fate/Zero:
  • The central conflict of the story rests around priests and magi trying to gain control of the Holy Grail, which will grant their greatest wish. It turns out towards the end that the Grail has a will of its own and may do anything from twist your wish to outright refuse it. That said, the church has their doubts that this artifact is actually the Grail (according to background materials, it is not), and other works in the Nasuverse establish that the Grail has been corrupted ever since the entity Angra Mainyu was sealed in it. So, it may be a subversion.

Having watched this series myself, I think calling the Grail a "god" is a massive stretch even before we get into the annoying waffling of saying it "may" be a subversion. Second opinions?

• In Final Fantasy Tactics, the final boss is a thinly disguised Expy of Jesus.
  • Granted, the entire thing was essentially expanding on the Pharisee argument found in the Bible - Is Jesus' power really divine in origin, or is he meant to tempt people from the true path/faith? Pretty damn serious subject-matter for a T-rated video game, and one that could be completely missed by anyone not familiar with the subject matter.
  • The above is the result of poor translation (something the PS1 version was well known for). The plot of the PSP version has the final boss as a false prophet type plotting to use Lucavi to rule the world. The Beoluve family are blood descendants of the person who stopped him the last time.
  • The dominant in-universe religion, however, holds that the final boss really is a Jesus-like figure. Thus, their equivalent of the Bible is a lie, and the "god" they worship is actually a demon. Whether a true God exists in the FFT world is never specified.
  • The "true god/s" of FFT would be the Occuria of ''Final Fantasy XII', as it's the same world. Their elimination is the only thing that allowed Ultima and the rest of the Lucavi to destroy the world of Ivalice in the first place. So yeah.

This example is a mess. Is the final boss Jesus or isn't he? What does he do that's evil beyond being the final boss? Is he an actual god or is this God Guise? What does the Occuria addition have to do with any of this?

• A disproportionate number of Breath of Fire games use the world's leading god as their Final Boss, mostly because the Sorting Algorithm of Evil says not much else should be powerful enough to faze them by the end of the game. In some cases, like Breath of Fire III, they portray the realization that you are going to have to fight and kill God with the weight such a goal would bring.

How is the god evil beyond being the final boss?

• Nameless (2015) by Grant Morrison: An Eldritch Abomination Made of Evil imprisoned on an asteroid is directly responsible for the very concept of God in the human psyche.

This example seems like a shoehorn and better suited to God Guise or God of Evil, but I'll give people a chance to elaborate on it if they think it's valid. (Also needs to go lighter on spoiler tags.)

• God in The Chronicles of Wormwood (by ...you guessed it, Garth Ennis) is another example, as He's apparently insane or severely mentally deficient; then there's also the fact that he's in league with Satan to bring about the biblical Apocalypse, over the objections of their much nicer sons Jay and Wormwood. Also of note: This version of God seems to really, really, really love masturbating (something of a Running Gag in Ennis' works).

This example makes it sound as if God is portrayed more as a Jerkass God, with his flaws being comedic foibles rather than true evil. Is he actually evil?

• The Rapture: Sharon comes to believe this. The film explores this question, since not only believers but atheists get a chance to enter heaven but only if they accept God. Sharon is only left out by her own choice.

This isn't quite a zero-context example, but I think it needs more information. Is God actually portrayed as evil or is this just the character's belief?

• "Remnant (March of the Undead IV)" by Machinae Supremacy uses a Zombie Apocalypse as a metaphor to criticize religious followers who insist that God is benevolent despite doing nothing to keep horrible things from happening. The song even implies that God enjoys watching the destruction he causes through inaction.

Is this only a metaphor, or is God an actual character portrayed in the work as evil?

• Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal seems to be quite fond of this trope and frequently uses it for jokes. It varies between this, God Is Flawed and Mad God. For example, there is a strip where an atheist argues against the idea of Hell, by stating that, being omnipotent, God already knows any action a human will take in their lifetime, so it makes no sense to punish them for it. So either, Hell doesn't exist, or God is a jerk.
  Satan: Struck by lightning?
  Atheist: Struck by lightning...

Is this better classified as Jerkass God?

• Wulffmorgenthaler: God and Satan agree on God being the evil one after flipping a coin.

• Some interpretations of Mr. Deity are this. He's not so much actively evil as tremendously uncaring.

• In Wonder Showzen. God appears as an evil, creepy voice. Of course, that's not surprising considering what kind of show it is...

What is God's behavior beyond sounding "creepy"?

• The Stand also has some elements of this near the end, with many protagonists' deaths being likened to sacrifices to God so that He'll personally interfere with Randall Flagg's plans (in a way that kills virtually all his "followers", including children whose only fault was being with adults who went to Flagg's side). One character gets so fed up with this that she cusses out God when she hears that her love interest has a divine mandate to go on what is likely a suicide mission to stop Flagg.

Is God an actual character in the work, or is this just in-universe speculation on God's motives (making this Rage Against the Heavens)?

• In Dean Koontz's earlier works, God Is Evil or at least God is Insane, as seen in Fear That Man and A Darkness in My Soul. In Dragon Tears, the villain seeks to become the New God, and his plans for the world are also as horrific as this trope can imagine.

What evil things does God do?

• Eloat in Burying the Shadow is an alternate-world interpretation of God that has gone power mad and refuses to give up power to his heir Sammael.

• Lester del Rey's short story "For I Am a Jealous People" has God's Chosen Aliens doing unto Earth what God's Chosen People used to do to other humans.

• Deus Ex Machina from Future Diary. Sure, he's about to die and is taking the world down with him, but picking his successor by forcing mostly innocent people to fight a battle royale for the lulz? Not to mention telling a 4-year-old to kill (semi)-innocent people. Later revealed to be the result of a Batman Gambit by another of the Diary Holders, John Bacchus, who told Deus to have a last conflict before he died, and hence took all the winning cards with him as a reward. Eventually Subverted in the Third Continuity, where Deus just makes Yuno Gasai the God without any bloodshed.

• Dragon Ball Super introduces Zeno, who hosts a tournament between entire universes that will destroy all but the winner, and which turns out to actually be a Secret Test of Character at the end of which all universes involved are restored. That being said, he did destroy six other universes for real over an unspecified, implied-to-be-trivial cause at a much earlier point in time.

• Princess Tutu has the eccentric sadist Drosselmeyer to contend with: a dead writer whose influence, and love of tragedy, still haunt Kinkan Town.

• Clive Barker's Next Testament has Wick, the Father of Colors. He's petty, he seeps the life force out of people, levitates them and lets them plummet to their death, makes their heads explode, forces them to build monuments in his honor and ultimately becomes an Omnicidal Maniac. Also, he fucking hates free will.

• Titan from The Immortal Game. Imagine O'Brien from Nineteen Eighty-Four with the powers of an elder god. And his wife/daughter Terra is almost as bad.

• The Vocaloid song "Honey I'm Home" features an evil god with an incredibly creepy appearance who literally vivisects the protagonist.

• Oglaf: The adherents of the Cult of Sithrak the Blind Gibberer believe that Sithrak is a cruel and gruesome god who tortures his worshippers for all eternity. This is actually the main draw of the religion, since it completely absolves you of moral quandries. Doesn't matter if you're good or evil, Sithrak will torture you either way. Of course, it turns out that Sithrak is actually a decent guy, and the cult is based on some angsty teenage poetry of his.

• The White Queen in The Unexplored Summon://Blood-Sign. She's seen as all-powerful and benevolent, but only the former is true. She's actually an incredible Yandere for Kyousuke, the main character, and doesn't care for anyone else. Unlike other examples of this trope, she doesn't hate humanity... but she's willing to do anything to make Kyousuke love her again, including endangering the entire world, so there's effectively no difference.

• Final Fantasy XV: DLC reveals that Bahamut intentionally drove Ardyn insane and orchestrated the apocalypse 2,000 years in advance, with all the civil wars in between, just to cure a demon epidemic. The novels^note jury's out on whether or not they are canon go further; Bahamut intended to use the power from defeating the Starscourge to wipe out the world and start over. All for the crime of having individuality.

• In Alundra, Melzas is actually the god who is worshiped by the citizens of Inoa, which makes him more powerful. And then he starts killing them off.

Edited by FoolsEditAccount on Nov 20th 2023 at 11:02:51 AM

@Shakira example: It's more Rage Against the Heavens since the song is about questioning why so many horrible things happen in a world with a supposedly benevolent God.

@Horns: Another Rage Against the Heavens. God doesn't show up as a character.

@Future Diary: Deus is the only known god and thus the top god, but I think it's more Blue-and-Orange Morality than God Is Evil. There is a genuine need for a replacement for him and he got convinced into the killing game by a human trying to take advantage of the chaos. His alternate timeline counterpart is a lot more reasonable and just accepts Yuki and Yuno as his replacements without fuss.

What's the status on the new "evil god" trope? Do I have to propose it due to being the TRS sponsor, or can anyone do it?

Thanks, I've moved the Rage Against the Heavens examples. The Future Diary one sounds complicated, so I'll leave it for further discussion.

Edited by FoolsEditAccount on Oct 24th 2023 at 1:47:08 PM

The trope exists for examples of where the supreme deity in a fictional work is evil. It's not to be confused with God of Evil.

^^ Anyone can make a draft for the trope on a sandbox or the TLP

Oh, we should also change the page quote, since it's actually an example of Rage Against the Heavens and may well be responsible for some of the conflation.

@The Beginning After the End example: Yes, Kezess is the Top God of his setting, being the ruler of Epheotus which itself is the land of the Asuras, themselves being gods of the setting.

Example restored, thanks.

People are still adding Rage Against the Heavens examples. Since the repair is taking a while, I added a provisional line to the trope description to address this (bolded section in the following quote). Feel free to workshop it.

Sandbox.Evil Gods is up, please workshop it.

While constructing it I saw a few examples I find questionable even under that broader trope, which I've added to my list upthread.

Doesn't look like that's using Heroic Fantasy right.

I was thinking about the oft-repeated cliche that jRPGs are all about killing God in the end (and indeed, most the the examples come from video games), but perhaps that's more of a general power fantasy thing.

Edited by FoolsEditAccount on Nov 24th 2023 at 9:09:21 AM

It's been a while with no notes on the sandbox entry, so I've officially placed "Evil Gods" on the Trope Launch Pad.

I think the KOTOR 2 example is closest to Rage Against the Heavens but can be slimmed down significantly. The key point is that the Force is supposed to be an allegory to George Lucas's concept of the Abrahamic God. However, Kreia acts as something of an Author Avatar for the game's lead writer Chris Avellone in deconstructing the typical Black-and-White Morality of Star Wars and criticizing a lot of the Force's apparent opinions on good and evil: c.f. the fact that the Sith can still use the Force at all despite the "true" Force purportedly opposing their aims and methods (according to the previous game it stripped the Rakata of their ability to use it for being massive dicks, but it never seems to have a problem with the Sith), and the fact that it seemed to have no problem with the Jedi propping up the catastrophically corrupt Republic of the prequels.

Though Avellone has admitted in hindsight that he was probably too harsh.

Given the reaction to the TLP entry has overwhelmingly been confusion and disdain, may I suggest we run a new crowner? I believe the original crowner's respondents were non-representative. Now that the idea has entered the TLP sphere, we may have more people willing to weigh in.

To explain this further, we're essentially having trouble telling what, if any, distinction there is between God of Evil and the Evil Gods draft. My understanding is that ostensibly a God of Evil is supposed to be a god whose portfolio comprises "evil" concepts (ETA: this is a misconception apparently: it's supposed to be a god who is the embodiment of evil), whereas Evil Gods is supposed to just be "gods who are evil", but I have two problems with that:

• Gods in fiction tend to act like their portfolios. In other words the Venn diagram between "god of an evil concept" and "evil god" is essentially a circle.
• I'm not convinced that the rare edge case where an "evil god" is not also a "god of an evil concept" is actually tropeworthy on its own: their evilness and godliness in that case are probably better described separately using other tropes.

Edited by StarSword on Dec 23rd 2023 at 2:42:50 PM

There are a lot of examples in the Evil Gods draft that wouldn't be accepted under God of Evil, mainly because God of Evil's definition is exceptionally narrow. Honestly, I agree that God of Evil is an odd and overly specific trope, and should probably be expanded to include, like, stuff where Loki is a Card-Carrying Villain. It's possible it may need its own TRS thread, but that'll likely take months to get rolling.

What would be on the new crowner? As far as I can tell no major changes have actually happened yet, so if Evil Gods fails, would that just set us to the current status quo?

I think we need to consider formally broadening God of Evil from the narrow definition of a god who is the complete and utter embodiment of "evil" to cover gods of evil concepts more generally, which seems to be what people mostly think God of Evil is to begin with. (I've corrected my earlier post since I had the definition wrong.)

Edited by StarSword on Dec 23rd 2023 at 2:51:13 PM

Well, if anyone wants to start a thread for God of Evil, I'd like them to not be me. This one alone has been exhausting and I have other stuff I'd like to get to. The TRS queue is currently at 114 entries, so if you want to make one you'd better do it now before it gets any longer.

Oh, one last point of order: Can we please change the page quote? It's an example of Rage Against the Heavens, not God Is Evil, and likely inspired many of the misused examples.

Edited by FoolsEditAccount on Dec 24th 2023 at 8:16:25 AM