Jerkass Gods already includes other jerkish (and evil) gods?
Anyway, if the trope is meant to be "evil Top God", it would need either a rename, or a merge into Jerkass Gods. (The reverse of the latter would need another wick check.)
Not sure why Abrahamic specifically was suggested.
Edited by Amonimus on Sep 6th 2023 at 6:19:51 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupAlso, given the Abrahamic God is such a major cultural and mythological figure, I do think it's worth a trope specifically about him being evil (in the same vein as Satan Is Good). If not, then this is redundant with Jerkass Gods and should be fused.
Edited by FoolsEditAccount on Sep 6th 2023 at 11:29:52 AM
I don't associate God with Abrahamic God specifically so I'll leave this point for others.
Regarding the "Abrahamic God/religions but evil", God Is Evil Wick Check doesn't show much of that, so that'd be for Trope Launch Pad.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupYeah, they're right; if you use "God" it typically means the Abrahamic one; other deities are "gods" (or goddesses), with a lowercase "g" likely because these religions tend to have multiple gods instead of one singular capitalized "God".
That said, if there's not much evidence in the wick check to support a retool then this conversation, then...
Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 6th 2023 at 12:21:12 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessClarifying the description to get the point about the God in question being the Abrahamic God is fine, but I can't think of any other changes to make. I don't think retooling is necessary because we have other tropes for other deities, and I think the current name is fine.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.The wick check currently identifies 37 examples that are specifically about the Abrahamic God. I don't know how that measures up to the wiki's standards for notable tropes. I should note, however, that a lot of the examples I've classified under "unclear" could be valid examples, I'm just not familiar enough with the work to judge.
I also feel like subversions that just amount to God Is Good should be classed as a Double Subversion of God Is Good instead, since God Is Good is the default characterization of God.
Edited by FoolsEditAccount on Sep 6th 2023 at 1:12:50 PM
Just wanna mention that autocorrect programs tend to capitalize god even when talking about the concept of a god (case in point, I had to undo autocorrect twice just now), so capital-G God doesn't necessarily mean the speaker meant Abrahamic.
Merge with Jerkass Gods
Jerkass =/= evil. I actually don't love that Jerkass Gods seems to cover cases of "the gods collectively are evil" as it is - I think the intention is more for amoral pantheons as in popular depictions of, say, the Olympians than outright malevolent ones.
Edited by nrjxll on Sep 6th 2023 at 12:59:23 PM
I agree. Otherwise things like Adaptational Villainy and Adaptational Jerkass wouldn't be separate tropes.
An Evil Pantheon trope would be a good way to salvage this concept.
Oddly, the description actually claims the being doesn't even have to be a god necessarily. My impression is that this trope is for when a world is ruled by an omnipotent and malicious god-like being.
Oldest Internet Archive copy. 2011 TRS thread dealing with similar issues of scope. Declined TRS thread suggesting that by 2014 the trope was clearly (perceived to be) about more than just the Abrahamic God, to the point the OP felt the name was misleading because it implied it was that specific. State of the page around the time of the declined thread.
Edited by MorganWick on Sep 7th 2023 at 2:36:40 AM
To give an idea of what prompted me to make this thread, I wanted to look at God Is Evil to get a feel for how common it was for works to depict the Abrahamic God as evil, but the broadness of the examples makes that muddled. Given the importance of the Abrahamic God in the current cultural landscape (especially among the anglosphere), I do think it's worth a trope about him specifically.
Edited by FoolsEditAccount on Sep 7th 2023 at 8:01:24 AM
I think "evil gods", "evil ruler of the world" and "evil depictions of abrahamic religions" are tropeworthy ideas, the issue is in which order they would be split and if that happens here or TLP.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupBefore that, I think we should clean up the clear-cut misuse examples in the wick check — the ones that belong in Rage Against the Heavens, Jerkass Gods, or God of Evil. After that, the majority of the remaining examples are generically evil gods, so deciding whether to split or expand Jerkass Gods would be the next logical step.
Edited by FoolsEditAccount on Sep 7th 2023 at 9:43:43 AM
I’m leaning on a rename. I don’t think this is the same as Jerkass God because jerks don’t have to be villains.
I agree with not merging. Could the "fake God" examples be their own trope?
For every low there is a high.Isn't that already covered by God Guise?
I wasn't aware of that trope. That does indeed cover a lot of the "God is actually an alien/fairy/Satan/just some guy" examples. I've moved those examples in the wick check, bumping the "different trope" category up to 27%.
Sadly Mythtaken may also apply for some examples, especially the Gnostic allegories.
Edited by FoolsEditAccount on Sep 7th 2023 at 8:25:42 AM
We actually literally have Demiurge Archetype for the Gnostic stuff. IIRC that's a relatively new trope, so I suspect some of the cases of not using it are just people not being aware it exists.
Ah, nice. While reading I also discovered Not Quite the Almighty, which fits several examples as well. Wick check has been updated to recategorize examples.
Edited by FoolsEditAccount on Sep 8th 2023 at 7:47:57 AM
I'm in favor ofblimiting to the Abrahamic God and Crystal Dragon Jesus stand-ins.
Crown Description:
God Is Evil is about the supreme deity of a setting being evil, but it's misused. What should be done with God Is Evil?
God Is Evil states that it describes works where the supreme deity of a setting is depicted as evil. However, a majority of the examples are misused as one of the following:
While most of these can be straighforwardly moved or removed, there are some changes that could be made to address the first case. I think the description should be revised to state explicitly that the trope is about the Abrahamic Creator God (or obvious allegories such as Crystal Dragon Jesus) instead of the vague term "supreme deity", and expand Jerkass Gods to include all other overtly evil gods.
Wick check:
God Is Evil states that it describes works where the supreme deity of a setting is depicted as evil. However, a majority of the examples are misused as one of the following:While most of these can be straighforwardly moved or removed, there are some changes that could be made to address the first case. I think the description should be revised to state explicitly that the trope is about the Abrahamic God (or obvious allegories such as Crystal Dragon Jesus) instead of the vague term "supreme deity", and expand Jerkass Gods to include all other overtly evil gods.
Currently have only checked the examples on the page itself because I can't find a way to easily format/number wicks for random selection.
Total examples: 245note
Will manifest tomorrow
Another love that I've taken from you
Lost in time, on the edge of suffering
Another taste of the evil I breed
Will level you completely
Bring to life everything that you fear
Live in the dark, and the world is threatening
English Soldier (Willie): Wait a minute, you two-timing spot of light. You told me to lead the English to victory!
Joan (Lisa): *gasp* Is that true, Lord?
God: Well, I never thought the two of you would be in the same room, actually. This is a little embarrassing. Goodbye now.
Technically correct by the current definition but not the Abrahamic God or equivalent
These would need to be moved under my proposed description change. (I may be incorrect about some of these due to lacking work familiarity.)Rage Against the Heavens (38)
Examples have been moved off God Is Evil, but individual work pages still need checkingTwister: Oh yes. Sister Mary Ignatius. They used to call me Twister. And you're Windfall. We're going to do God's work together.
Windfall: Do you mind if I ask you a question about God, Sister?
Twister: Of course not, child!
Windfall: Why — why does God hate me?
Twister: Oh, Windfall! God doesn't hate just you! God hates everybody.
Windfall: ... What?!
Twister: Well, look at me! Look at you! Look at the state of the world! Do you see the loving hand of a kindly God or somebody's idea of a sick joke? Don't take it personally.
When all of your prayers go completely ignored.
Blame it on the Lord,
When you and your family get put to the sword.
Praise the Lord for the good he can do,
But he can take the rap for the bad crap too.
Chef: Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?
Stan: But then, why does God give us anything to start with?
Chef: Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power.
Stan: I think I understand.
Jerkass Gods (6)
Examples have been moved off God Is Evil, but individual work pages still need checkingGod of Evil (10)
Examples have been moved off God Is Evil, but individual work pages still need checkingGod Guise (9)
Examples have been moved off God Is Evil, but individual work pages still need checkingDemiurge Archetype (2)
Not Quite the Almighty (2)
Not the Abrahamic God, sole creator deity, or "supreme deity" of a pantheon, or multiple gods are evil
Moved to Sandbox.Evil Godscyborgundead robotic slaves. There are four of them left: the Nightbringer, the personification of death who burned his image into the psyche of virtually all life (big exception: the Orks) as such and made life be afraid of death; the Deceiver, Chessmaster par excellence; the Outsider, currently batshit bonkers and locked away in a cosmic prison; and the Void Dragon, currently napping. Information on the Void Dragon is sketchy, but he is said to be the most powerful C'Tan of them all, is believed to have total control over machines of all sorts, lightning, and may be the Machine God worshipped by the Adeptus Mechanicus — conveniently assumed to be sleeping under Mars.Character has a god complex but is not an actual god
God isn't evil or is only ambiguously evil
I take from you your children and you say how blessed are we
You all must be crazy to put your faith in me
That's why I love mankind
You really need me
That's why I love mankind
Other
Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 24th 2023 at 3:58:56 AM