Misused: Transgender Fetishization

Also Goldenpillar, the issue with broadening the original trope would be that it runs into problems other people in this thread pointed out—namely, a lot of the current examples are just "fanservice of this queer character". It would be redundant since we already have the pages Mr. Fanservice, Ms. Fanservice, and Attractive Bent-Gender to cover those.

Well, my point is that the sexualization of Straight and LGBT characters are different, and although each has its own layers, I think it would be much easier to compile it into just TWO types: Straight Sexualization, and Lgbt Sexualization, rather than each page for gay, lesbian, Crossdresser, Trans, Non-Binary, etc., because as you said, it works very well to compile "This comes from the conclusion that queer people are more promiscuous" and then list the small differences between each one and the particularities, I don't know, I'm more of a fan of a few long and complex articles, than several short articles that, as the OP said, end up falling into disuse.

I like this site, but sometimes I feel like, like, I could combine like 5 tropes and combine them into a single trope and explain everything in a single page.

Eh, I mean... All Gays are Promiscuous and Girl on Girl Is Hot are both about sexualization of queer people and they are very different concepts. The idea of merging these and others under one big "queer people get sexualized" trope feels kinda absurd.

Just for now (I can't decide on anything else right now, I might later) my two cents are about this specifically:

I don't think this being one of the splits would be a good idea because the Ms. Fanservice pages (and from what I gather the Mr. Fanservice pages, but I didn't check these as often) as they stand already have a large problem with misuse of users adding any character they find hot and several examples with overly gushy, creepy writing. If the page is about fanservice in general, I can see it being misused and turning to a ground of "This is a trans/GNC character I personally find hot and I'll gush on about their whole appearance," going the same way that the Ms. Fanservice and Mr. Fanservice pages (and possibly several other fanservice-adjacent tropes) are. "Trans Chaser" and "Trans Equals Hypersexual" sound like valid tropes this can be split to but I think if the character is sexualized, the fanservice should be put in Ms. Fanservice, Mr. Fanservice, or whatever trope is relevant to the specific scene, since making a new "List of instances of fanservice" page would probably only add more to the already large Lewdness cleanup pileup the wiki already has.

It could work if the page is specifically about cases where a character is sexualized by the author because they are trans/GNC (I also think Ms. Fanservice and Mr. Fanservice are valid tropes, and just need the entries to focus on writer intent of a specific character instead of audience reactions to appearance), but frankly I think there's a risk of this becoming another creepy example magnet so it'd probably have to be on a cleanup watch at the very least. My thoughts on a "Trans Fanservice" split aren't a hard no, just that there's a good chance of it needing extra monitoring.

Adding also my to the broad trope idea of "fanservice of trans or gender non-conforming characters", and also the more specific yet also oft-heightened topic of "trans/GNC characters being sexualized in a particularly heightened way, and often being prone to sexualized focus than cis characters". Just to split that into a few parts for a sec for the sake of discussion:

For the part of "trans/GNC characters are subject to particularly heightened sexualization", while I don't disagree with GoldenPillar and Admiralakbar1 that there is often a certain slant in which trans/GNC characters are approached in terms of fanservice in some modern media, the big problem I'm seeing here is that to make a trope about it, that's a pretty vague bar to clear. No one here has really adequately articulated what exactly differentiates that approach in fanservice between a trans character and a cis character in a vacuum, and I think that if you had to prove in a discussion about how, say, a trans female character deemed a Ms. Fanservice is more egregiously fanservice-y than a cis female character deemed a Ms. Fanservice in the same work, ultimately I don't think would be even worth pointing out, because in the end, they'd still be recognized as Ms. Fanservice on their own terms. Trying to emphasize some particularity about it vis a vis their gender identity would probably come off as unnecessarily detailed and potentially creepy.

Like, just imagine someone arguing over how (partly borrowing from the current page image) the (presumably) trans Poison from Street Fighter V is more "distinctly" fetishized than R. Mika from the same game, who fights in a skimpy wrestling leotard with boob-hole and has a super move involving crushing an opponent between her and her friend's asses. That is the kind of discussion that would have to be implicitly cleared for an entry on a trope like that to be valid and work, and would probably get messy super fast. Unless one can actually set a closer-to-objective bar to establish what exactly it would evaluate, I say just forget about this particular trope concept.

Now, as for "trans/GNC characters are often prone to sexualized focus more than cis characters", that I think is more valid, and what I believed this trope was originally trying to document more. That wasn't a particular criteria that was being categorized in the wick check, but I think could be more specified of the general ground that was covered of the "fanservice of trans/GNC characters" that would probably have to go. I think if there is a fair amount of proof that the ratio of non-fetishized vs. fetishized trans/GNC characters to non-fetishized vs. fetishized cis characters of the same work is glaring enough, that I believe is indeed something worth noting and less prone to misuse.

I commented about it a little bit earlier, but I'd say a split should focus more on that than the "Trans Equals Hypersexual" proposal of "trans characters are depicted as being more horny, sexualized, deviant, etc. than everyone else", because I think the broader trend that should be highlighted is not merely "trans character is more likely to be promiscuous", but "authors/creators are more prone to fetishize trans characters than cis characters", which again, is what I believe the trope was supposed to be originally about. That's why I specifically pitched the split trope being titled "Trans Equals Hypersexualization" (or possibly "Trans Equals Oversexualization" if you wanna emphasize how disproportionate it is to cis characters, but that may be too inherently negative), because that makes it more clear that it's about the broad framing of trans characters as depicted as a result of how creators made the work, not necessarily just limiting it to "this trans character has a libido".

Recapping my points: "Trans Chaser" I think is a fine trope as is for covering the in-universe fetishization, but for the out-of-universe cases, we should focus more on the volume with which transgender characters are approached with as fetishistic eye candy rather than the "quality" of it relative to other kinds of fanservice.

Edited by number9robotic on Oct 12th 2023 at 10:29:00 AM

My problem with your proposed "trans characters are more sexualized than cis characters in a work" definition is that it runs into some problems that "trans characters behave in overly sexual ways" doesn't, namely:

• It's more nebulous in scope. For instance, how would we define the threshold for the proportion of sexualized and non-sexualized trans and cis characters? Would it simply be "I know it when I see it"?
• It's more subjective in nature because because it requires speculation as to the creator's intent. I doubt most creators have outright said "I gave this trans character a bikini scene because I think they're all exotic shemales," after all.
• It risks falling into the same pitfalls as the original trope, i.e., Trope Decay into "any work featuring sexualization of a trans character."

Edited by Admiralakbar1 on Oct 17th 2023 at 3:20:51 PM

Duly noted. If the case of "A group is more sexualized/scandalized than B group" runs into the same vulnerable degree of non-objectivity where it will be likely people will make up their own value judgements that could result in trope decay, then yeah, that would be a problem and it shouldn't warrant troping.

I still side with my opinion that that's still more valid a concept than merely going "trans/GNC character is a source of fanservice", which at best is The Same, but More Specific to Mr. Fanservice or Ms. Fanservice, or any other "this person has a libido" trope, and at worst is a gateway for creepy tropers to gush about why they think this trans character is hot.

If there isn't any kind of consistently verifiable significance or statement that can be adequately extracted out of fanservicey trans/GNC characters specifically as a result of them being trans/GNC, I don't know if there's really much out of Transgender Fetishization as an assessment-based trope that can be salvaged. Trans Chaser could survive just because it is a narrative trope that can be observed objectively and has specific parameters to qualify that exclusively involves trans characters, but otherwise, there just isn't anything much left.

Edited by number9robotic on Oct 18th 2023 at 11:51:35 AM

I think the distinguishing factor here is comparison to cis characters. It's not that a trans character is sexual, but that cis characters are notably not as sexual (or if they are, they have more character depth beyond their sexuality) or that the only trans characters are put in more sexual positions, such as sex work or being the ones who Really Get Around. A well-contextualized entry would need some sort of comparison point or at least say these are the only trans characters and yet they fit this stereotype.

That "depiction relative to cis characters" qualifier is the point that Admiralakbar1 was arguing against above, and I agree with them that it's a very vulnerable thing to rely on for the trope since not only would it require very specific contextual knowledge, but also a certain value judgement on what counts to the "fanservicey trans characters : fanservicey cis characters" ratio.

Once again drawing upon my Street Fighter V example from my above wall of text post (and also because she's the subject of the trope's page image and thus framed as a "clear-cut" example): Poison is an ambiguously trans woman with a dominatrix-style theme that stands out against the cis and modestly-dressed Sakura, but then other cis female characters in the game include Chun-Li, Cammy, R. Mika, Ibuki, Juri, Menat, and Laura, who all also have pretty revealing designs among the other modestly-dressed female characters (Laura also has a much more overtly flirty personality and sexualized presentation than Poison). With that ratio, I cannot think of a good-faith, honest argument for what makes Poison so special, especially one that makes her (ambiguous) identity as a trans woman a focus.

That would have to be a judgement needed to be made for every example of this proposed "authors/creators are more prone to fetishize trans characters than cis characters" approach. There just isn't enough meat in the concept to prevent it from devolving into the exact problems Transgender Fetishization already has, that being how it's just basically "person is trans and a source of fanservice", used as a vague springboard for whatever take a given troper wants to talk about.

Edited by number9robotic on Oct 18th 2023 at 12:26:04 PM

So do we have anything further to say about what can actually be salvaged about Transgender Fetishization beyond in-universe phenomena? Because otherwise I don't think anyone here has been able to provide a solid argument for exactly makes specifically "playing up a transgender character for fanservice" more noteworthy than "playing up any character for fanservice" that Mr. Fanservice, Ms. Fanservice, or some other relevant trope doesn't already cover, and I haven't seen anyone properly articulate any objective difference in depiction of fetishized trans characters that warrant such a separation besides "it just feels different compared to how cis characters are fetishized."

Edited by number9robotic on Oct 25th 2023 at 1:14:15 AM

Here's how I understand it. Writers, especially cis writers, often see trans people (usually trans women) in the context of sex and genitalia. There's also a transphobic mentality about trans people using their identity to be predatory. As such, a lot of trans characters are depicted as sex workers or otherwise only show up in the context of porn or simply being an overly-flirty person. This is the same mentality that fuels in-universe Trans Chaser logic, though it can also be meant to involve Fan Disservice for the audience by assuming we think a trans person being very sexual is creepy.

As such, a lot of trans characters are depicted as sex workers or otherwise only show up in the context of porn or simply being an overly-flirty person.

Alright, so I took another look over what the Transgender Fetishization Wick Check has to say about the general usage tends to be with this particular assessment in mind, and a few things pop out to me: regarding the "depicted as sex workers", confirmed cases that depict that situation is a very narrow minority occurrence, although I suppose enough of a phenomenon to worth narrowing down the trope to.

I still do see problems with using "overly-flirty" as a metric for this though, because it runs into the issue I described earlier of being vulnerable to non-objective interpretations as to "this says group A is more scandalized than group B", which primarily comes from context. Back to Poison from Street Fighter again, she's not characterized by her genitals (at least not by the creators of the games she appears in), and the degree to which she is characterized by her flirtiness/lasciviousness is 1) not unique to her, and 2) often not even the most prominent example among the cast. The cis Laura from SFV really plays up the fanservicey Spicy Latina stereotypes, and there's still a huuuuuge fanservice focus on a majority of other cis females in the cast. That's not mentioned in the page entries; I only know about that context because I happen to be a fan of Street Fighter.

I see similar issues with other examples in the wick check of characters who are played for fanservice reasons, but the descriptions don't really acknowledge how differently or not they are played with regards to that within the context of their individual work — once again: sure, a trans character might be played with for fanservice purposes, but if a vast majority of them are also flirty and sexual, highlighting how trans characters get in on it also becomes meaningless, because whatever justifications can be used to describe them as being walking eye candy could very likely be just as applicable to cis characters.

I will make quick note of how Transgender Fetishization only appears to have just over 100 wicks, so I don't think a cleanup effort on whatever threshold we define as being "more scandalous" fetishization would be the most intense. Wherever we end up drawing the line, I pray it not be too intense of a deal.

Transgender Fetishization is a Trope in Aggregate so the pattern usually won't visible in the work itself because you'll have to look at how trans people are characterized in fiction as a whole. If kept as a trope in some fashion, there's not much we can do about expanding on example writeups.

Edited by MacronNotes on Oct 25th 2023 at 9:27:36 AM

Thing is that if we do go the Tropes in Aggregate route, almost all of the examples within the wick check would be disqualified because a vast majority of them don't say anything about the holistic presentation of trans/GNC characters, just that "fanservice is a part of the character" and that's it. Again, examples that describe trans characters exclusively in lewd ways with a heavily disproportionate ratio to cis characters is a minority approach.

This once again wraps around to the problems of being too ill-defined, too subjective, and potentially too rare to approach as this very specific-to-trans-characters phenomenon. I'm leaning back on just approaching on simply in-universe fixation/fetishization vis a vis Trans Chaser.

If we want to salvage the original page, with the quality of the current examples, IMO the only viable options are either to turn it into a No Examples page or punt it to the TLP.

Edited by Admiralakbar1 on Oct 30th 2023 at 5:25:23 AM

Looking at some of the other cases in Tropes in Aggregate, it would probably be easier to simply retool my Trans Equals Hypersexual draft a bit to emphasize that aspect, rather than trying to cobble something together out of the original Transgender Fetishization article. Especially as, how Mewtron pointed out on the last page, All Gays are Promiscuous is similar in role and scope for gay characters, so this can easily be made to apply as well.

Edited by Admiralakbar1 on Dec 7th 2023 at 3:21:58 PM

I'm still holding my opinion of Transgender Fetishization as an assessment-based trope has lots of problems right now, probably too much to keep around. I can get behind the root principle of it (in the ratio of "fanservicey trans characters : fanservicey cis characters" within a work, it's far more disproportionately slanting to the former), but the way it's set up isn't handled well at all. I reiterate my pitch to just make a separate trope on characters fetishizing trans characters in-universe (a hypothetical Trans Chaser), and if we still think the concept of out-of-universe analysis of a work is still worthy, it should probably be yarded, because as it stands, it just seems to highlight "literally any time a trans character has fanservice attached to them".

It actually reminds me of some disputes I came across recently of disputes of Bury Your Gays, which some folks misinterpret from the original point of "gay characters die disproportionately often compared to straight characters" to "gay characters die". Being so reductive is not only incorrect praxis, it's also tends to result in very chairs-y coverage, because straight people can also die and cisgender people can also be fanservice magnets. There probably is a bar that can be set that would establish when a scenario of trans characters being particularly more fetishized than cis characters occurs that can justify this trope, but it evidently hasn't been found here in the TRS.

Edited by number9robotic on Dec 18th 2023 at 3:47:21 AM

If someone could compile a list of crowner options, we could hook a crowner and shut off the clock.

Looking through the thread, there aren't any objections to splitting off Trans Chaser. As for what to do for the rest of the trope, there's:

• Cut and replace with the Trans Equals Hypersexual draft

• Cut and replace with a "Trans Equals Hypersexualized/Oversexualized" trope

• Cut and replace with a "Trans Fanservice" trope

• Cut and disambig between existing fanservice tropes (Mr. Fanservice, Ms. Fanservice, Attractive Bent-Gender, Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite, etc.)

• Keep current trope page, salvage & rewrite examples

• Keep current trope page, make it a no examples page

It should be noted that not all of these are mutually exclusive (e.g., launch "Trans Fanservice" but disambig the current name).

~GastonRabbit

Edited by Admiralakbar1 on Dec 19th 2023 at 3:14:44 PM

• Cut and replace with the Trans Equals Hypersexual draft
• Cut and replace with a "Trans Equals Hypersexualized/Oversexualized" trope

two extra words aside, those sound functionally identical to me?

I'm inclined to agree, so I removed the second one for being a duplicate.

I like both names, though I am admittedly biased on the matter.