Misused: Salt And Pepper

Oldest Internet Archive copy for reference, dating from a time when ZCEs were a lot more normalized.

I'd point out that while the usage check has only two or three correct examples, it doesn't encompass every example, but pro-rating the correct examples to all 472 references would still only leave 18-28, which would be at best barely out of starving range.

Edited by MorganWick on Aug 15th 2023 at 1:45:02 AM

The Simpsons one in particular is gold because it basically just admits to being misuse.

So... I guess this trope was never in a good state.

I'd point out that the first paragraph of the description, then and now, hedges most of its statements with words like "usually" and "generally", such that the only part that's actually definitive of the trope is "an Odd Couple involving a white person and a nonwhite person". Being an Odd Couple would still require some sort of personality contrast, and it would help if those personalities derived from their differing backgrounds to avoid The Same, but More Specific, so the results of the usage check should still be valid (and the Simpsons examples may still be questionable), but the specific archetypes may not be strictly necessary.

Those are the best ones. "Alice and Bob are this, except they're not actually an Odd Couple and Alice isn't black, but just very suntanned."

Hmm... if that's the case, are there any examples on the wick check that may technically be correct if the uncertain wording of the description is to be believed?

"but the specific archetypes may not be strictly necessary." I don't think "Not mono-racial Odd Couple" is a tropeworthy split from Odd Couple without those archetypes, though, considering that the race wouldn't be adding anything to Odd Couple without the associated archetypes. Similarly, "gender split Odd Couple" isn't tropeworthy for the same reason if the gender doesn't add anything to it outside of the superficial.

Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 15th 2023 at 2:59:43 PM

Yeah, I think making the personality aspect optional would render this The Same, but More Specific to Odd Couple.

FWIW, Odd Couple already have a number of personality-based subtropes: Red Oni, Blue Oni, Gleeful and Grumpy Pairing, Ham and Deadpan Duo, Straight Man and Wise Guy. Salt and Pepper is just adding race to the mix.

I suppose National Stereotypes can explain why, in a white + black duo, the black guy is more likely to be the red/wise guy/ham/gleeful half of the pair, but I'm not convinced that this necessitates another subtrope split.

Edited by Adept on Aug 15th 2023 at 10:43:22 PM

I wasn't saying to make the personality aspect completely optional, more that the specific archetypes may be optional. As I said, "it would help if those personalities derived from their differing backgrounds to avoid The Same, but More Specific". The archetypes described on the page may be one case of this, but any clash of personalities that reflect a larger culture clash between the characters could still qualify.

That's also why I said the results of the usage check may still be valid, because any examples of alternative contrasts that aren't already marked as correct would go in the second folder, most of which are listed as subversions or inversions because the personalities don't fit the stereotypes you'd associate with those races. (Admittedly there may be a bit of a Not a Subversion problem.) The remaining folders are for partial or zero context examples, or blatant misuse, that would still fall under those categories if we looked at the trope differently.

Edited by MorganWick on Aug 16th 2023 at 2:14:04 AM

Yeah, but the culture clash isn't given the tiniest bit of lip-service, and even among the correct examples, I don't recall the characters' ethnicity being an issue. In the MIB example, for instance, if J and K are of the same race, I don't think it'd change the dynamic all that much.^note the example entry mentions that the two were white in the source material, although I don't know what the pair's dynamic is like there.

I think, at the very least, that it's worth a TLP draft using some of the on page examples + any correct ones in the wick check. I agree that this is A Thing, but it's borne out of dated American racial stereotypes of black people (Robin Hood: Men in Tights was already parodying the dynamic in the 90s), which means it's pretty prone to trope decay esp from a modern troper's perspective. Whether or not it's feasible as a subtrope of Odd Couple can be discussed in the TLP.

I'm personally not convinced that narrowed and specified examples will be anything more than Token Black Friend (which has "is linked to a white lead" baked into its definition already. the character from Robin Hood: Men in Tights is listed as an example of TBF on the film's character page, fwiw) but if people want to give it a go at the TLP, have at it

as for this page, merge into Odd Couple, disambig, or cut for options?

Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 16th 2023 at 1:47:29 PM

I think those options would work. Regarding cutting specifically, the inbound count isn't particularly high despite the page being from 2007 and thus predating the current inbound count, so a full-fledged cut could be on the table.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 16th 2023 at 1:21:35 PM

Token Black Friend says it is not when the black one is as important as the white one

Atchoo being Robin Hood's peripheral black best friend is for sure Token Black Friend. Atchoo being a 90s stereotype of an "urban" black wisecracker to Robin Hood's straightlaced white guy is missing from that trope. And of course any buddy cop feature where the two are co-leads would not be Token Black Friend.

I think "important" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there, but that's neither here nor there since hashing out that new trope is a convo for TLP

Neglected to say that the crowner's header could mention that none of the options that were mentioned preclude sending the trope to TLP or Yarding it (since it has so few correct examples in its current state).

Threw together a potential TLP draft: Sandbox.Salt And Pepper TLP Draft.

Should I hold off on launching it until after the crowner?

Should probably hold off until after the crowner, but that draft looks good

Yeah, let's wait to see if we're actually sending this back to TLP before making the draft.

[If the crowner results deem TLP] the draft looks great. The tighter duo trope with Straitlaced Middle-Class White Guy and Streetwise Roguish Black Guy is tropable, and the better description (and prob a new name) should invite stronger examples.

How do you expect people to fix examples for works we aren't familiar with?