Magic and the law of conservation of energy or how would ghosts and living toys get energy

I was thinking about whether or not a Magic Wand would need fuel since in my world the Functional Magic comes from the wand and not the person and magic can be used to manipulate velocity and temporally change an item's atomic structure and in order to keep it's changed shape you'd need to feed it continuous energy and in this setting there are ghosts which can possess things to change it's atomic structure and also people can create Familiar dolls which are toys that you form a Psychic Link with to help you cast spells and I was wondering how would they get energy?

Magic has always have a weird relationship with science. Even when they as idoelogies aren't at odds with each other.

I'd suggest having the magic draw from its wielder in some form. Instead of intimately having an internal reserve of magic, it instead channels that of the holder.

Alternatively go solar! handwave the wand's properties as a specialized form of photosynthesis that converts light into magic to power the spells.

Would still run into issues with physics, but at the very least it would provide a somewhat plausible method for how it uses energy.

For the dolls, I'd say have them mimic the biology of a living being, a metaphyscial body that is linked to the physical body of the one that imbued it life.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Aug 5th 2023 at 4:24:48 AM

I did decide that wands would have fuel since it makes more sense then drawing from the user but as for the sunlight thing I had originally had magic work like that but exclusively with moonlight exclusively so the way it worked was somehow ultraviolet light blocked magic and also that doesn't explain ghosts

Edited by Wild-Starfish on Aug 5th 2023 at 7:47:12 AM

Why not have it run on "darkness" then? (It's magic after all, wouldn't be the oddest source of energy to find in that context. Or "Dark Matter" to make it more comprehensible.)

Let the wands store up power by being kept in sealed canisters (like a thermos, just to get the overall idea) to "charge up" when not in use, and then pull them out to use during the day until the darkness in them have been depleted and forcing you to either bring out another one while charging up the first one, or pray that you're fighting at night where the energy source is more available.

And for the living dolls, why not have the basis for them being a sealed up "cranium" or equal hollow "sphere" where the source of magic is kept within a perfectly sealed up container where the light can't breach it and provide a consistent source of power for the doll to use as it sees fit.

Edited by Trainbarrel on Aug 5th 2023 at 11:39:12 AM

I suppose that the question is this: how "supernatural" do you want your magic to be?

After all, it's magic: depending on the specific magic in question, it doesn't necessarily have to obey a given physical law, even the laws of thermodynamics.

As to potential power-sources, there are lots of possibilities, I daresay!

For example, I recently read a series of books in which wands were internally powered as you describe, in this case using the bones of certain magic-heavy creatures, with the magic itself in turn being something that emanated up from the core of the planet.

Likewise, your idea of the wands storing moonlight seems like it could work. ^_^

(It wouldn't work in terms of physics, mind you, I daresay: I imagine that there's relatively little energy in moonlight.

But again, this is magic, and moonlight in your setting may have properties or energies not present or not discovered in our world.)

As for ghosts, do you specifically want them to use the same power-source as wands? Being undead, they might have other sources available to them, or even other means of achieving the same ends.

As for the dolls, I think that it might be worth figuring out either them or the wands first, and then seeing whether that one's power-source might apply to the other.

I've already figured out that the wands would be powered by certain magic-heavy plants and animal products pressed into a liquid and I don't really want ghosts to be powered by the same source as the wands I just want them to not be Perpetual Motion Monsters and I will say that ghosts in this setting are 4-dimensional beings so maybe they can draw power from the fourth dimension and as for the dolls any toy can be turned into a familiar doll without any modifications so they can't really use the same power source as the wands anyway

Edited by Wild-Starfish on Aug 11th 2023 at 6:51:52 AM

Let's distinguish between energy and entropy here - what organisms need, for the most part, is a way to dump entropy. Rearranging air molecules so that you see the ghost and having a consciousness does not require "energy", it requires a sink for entropy. Speaking needs energy, moving air needs energy, climbing stairs needs energy, but it's not the same thing.

If your magic does not follow the second law but follows the first, it will only need energy for a few things that require work - and can draw this energy from the surrounding air's heat. So a ghost would convert heat into sound and light and thus cool the surrounding air.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Aug 6th 2023 at 1:54:03 PM

The most obvious powersource for ghosts would be something of the living. Either in intangible form (the resentment or fear of the living have for the dead) or in tangible form (ghosts are basically vampires).

In the former case, ghosts would essentially weaken over time as people forget and make peace with the loss. Total wipeouts would also attract fewer ghosts (since all witnesses are dead) compared to local tragedies. Someone local who died would live in the minds of the surviving townsfolk and it could figuratively (and thus also literally) haunt it for decades or centuries. The more famous the situation, the more powerful the ghosts could be.

unfortunately one of the main characters is a ghost who while the event that killed her is famous In-Universe her death itself isn't (although she is well-known to the people who help her write her guide to the supernatural so maybe that could work) and also there are two ghosts who were ghost therapists and who's research has been rediscovered and mistaken for a reverse example of Medicate the Medium^note though it kind of is considering they were actually ahead of the curve on things like DID and neurodivergence and actually coined the term headmates and also one again they are four dimensional and there is a Physical Heaven of sorts outwards of the three-dimensional universe

Edited by Wild-Starfish on Aug 10th 2023 at 6:11:34 AM

Oh, so your ghosts are actually souls of the dead. Then make the power source the universe, or whatever aspect of the cosmos powers magic. They would then get their power from a connection of some kind to the afterlife.

I find it useful to think in terms of conservation of energy in fantasy, but not adhere to it. What I mean is that any form of magic needs limits that are intuitive to the audience and don't feel like they simply serve whatever the plot needs. And you can do that by conceiving of some universal limit on the totality of what magic can do where any one action is zero-sum.

Werewolf: The Forsaken has such a limit on the "essence" of the spirit world: a spirit in its place of origin generates just enough essence to keep going, and if it wants more it must take it from another spirit or the human world.

So you could have a magic system with laws based on real physics, but that doesn't require readers to have any particular knowledge or have to write down equations, like:

-Magic drains the user's lifeforce, both in physical strength and emotional commitment. Using too much leaves them weak and unable to think straight.

-Magic can make an object move, but not indefinitely without the user constantly renewing it.

-Temporary constructs can be made with magic, but not "true" matter that won't vanish after a while.

The problem with not limiting magic is that it forces very arbitrary restrictions to prevent anyone who can use it from resolving the plot in their favour (which is what I disliked about Harry Potter, and how Magica De Spell is used most of the time).

ok so i've already come up with basic rules for wand magic (that might need some refining) and some psychic powers^note which is a catch-all term for magic effecting the mind in my story it's just that wand magic explicity uses a fuel system that's hard to translate familiar dolls/ghosts for obvious reasons. The simplified rules are:

• There is a chemical element for magic that's only in some plants and animals
  • Potions exist and use a combination of ingredients these creatures and regular creatures as well as some specific wand movements
• Magic is expressed as some sort of clear odorless gas
• Magic can speed up natural processes
  • Magic can also change the atomic structure of any material including air but can not do so without constant application
  • Magic can also change an object's velocity or completely reset it
• Magic also contains some element of mental connections
  • Despite the mental connection aspect wand magic uses a combination of flute-like finger movement and arm movements to craft specific spells due to no direct connection to the brain
  • Geasa exist and can do things like the inability to tresspass through personal and public understanding of rules as to what counts as tresspassing
    • This also means that you can't enter someone's yard with being invited first or someone's room without being explicitly told you can go there^note people used to not own there own property so you could be invited by the person who legally owned it but what still need to be invited by the people who live there
    • They also use true names in a similar way but with names

Edited by Wild-Starfish on Sep 10th 2023 at 12:34:57 PM

It could be that ghosts only exist where there's magical potential energy. Kind of like how you only get algae where there's nutrients, water, and sunlight you only get ghosts where there's magic, some sort of death aspect, and a disembodied soul. The ghost acts like a catalyst for the potential magical energy and syphons that energy to sustain itself.

Think of it as the magical equivalent of decay-causing microbes, turning mulch into heat and fertile soil.