To-do list:
- Extraverted Nerd was disambiguated between Stereotypical Nerd, Casanova Wannabe, and Proud to Be a Geek. Move any wicks that fit other tropes accordingly, and delete anything else.
This is a confused trope all around. The name implies that the trope is about a character who is nerdy, but outgoing and sociable, as opposed to Stereotypical Nerds who are typically a Shrinking Violet, The Quiet One, and otherwise withdrawn due to shyness, awkwardness, bullying, or all of the above.
The actual definition however is a nerd who is unaware of their own nerdiness and often acts like a Casanova Wannabe. Off the bat, it's not immediately clear how being a Casanova Wannabe relates with being oblivious to one's own nerdiness, but I'm 99% sure this is a hangover from when this was an expy trope named "The Urkel", based on the character Steve Urkel from Family Matters, a Black and Nerdy Casanova Wannabe.
So I went into the wick check to see if the trope was being interpreted correctly. What I found was a ZCE /pothole magnet issue along with misuse: 60% of examples were either ZC Es/potholes. Only 14% were in-line with the "oblivious to one's nerdiness" definition. 16% were examples that went with the interpretation implied by the title and focused on nerdy characters being social and friendly. Only 5 of the 50 examples I saw even mentioned being a Casanova Wannabe or something related to it.
We could expand the trope to include the misuse (if we did so that would bump up correct examples to 30%; better but still not great), but I'm not sure "friendly/social nerd" is a meaningful split from Stereotypical Nerd. While many nerd characters are friendless loners, there are also many who are friendly and sociable, just within their own friend group and amongst other nerdy characters. And plenty stereotypical nerds have their social awkwardness manifest as a clumsy overeagerness to make friends; they're friendly but lack the ability to read social cues, making their attempts to do so awkward.
I do think the idea of "Oblivious to one's nerdiness" is tropeworthy, but more so as "Uncool and unashamed/unbothered by it". Stereotypical Nerds are often depicted as being either natural introverts or become introverted due to social reinforcement that their interests and hobbies are lame, uncool, and therefore shameful. Thinking back to Urkel, Urkel doesn't care about any of that. He's his chipper geeky/nerdy talkative self regardless of what others say or think about him.
Now, how distinct that is from Proud to Be a Geek is debatable. Maybe it'd be better to move away from the nerd focus to a more generalized "loser" focus. All that being said, I didn't come across any in the wick check that neatly fits that definition either, so that's probably an idea for the salvage yard or TLP.
Options:
- expand to misuse
- merge into Stereotypical Nerd
- merge into Proud to Be a Geek
- disambig between Stereotypical Nerd, Casanova Wannabe, and Proud to Be a Geek
I'm ok with any of the options (and likely any others folks can come up with) apart from expansion.
Wick check:
Wicks Checked: 50- Correct - 7 (14%)
- Potentially correct if just being "not shy"/sociable is enough - 8 (16%)
- Misuse - 5 (10%)
- ZCE/zero context potholes - 30 (60%)
Definition: A nerd who is unaware of how nerdy they are and often acts the Casanova Wannabe thinking they are much suaver than they are.
- Superbad: Fogell, aka McLovin, seems to have no idea how dorky he is and puts himself out in social situations.
- Zoey 101 - Quinn: A rare female example, mainly in the early seasons where she dresses like a dork, and doesn't realize how much the others find her behavior strange and awkward. In later seasons, she becomes more of a normal and pretty nerd who just happens to have an interest in science.
- Total Drama Tiki Jungle: Basically the extent of his character. Gary is friendly, dorky, and fancies himself suave around Meg but certainly isn't.
- Red Dwarf - Arnold: Part of the reason why his fellow Dwarfers dislike Rimmer is because he's extremely outspoken about the various nerdy things he enjoys (Hammond organs, telephone pole and diesel engine spotting, James Last music, muzak, morris dancing, Risk, etc), never seeming to realise the others find this all incredibly boring and find him irritating for trying to shove it in their faces all the time.
- Pastamonsters The Proxies - Ticci, Small Name, Big Ego: He thinks he's quite the ladies man and is a Extraverted Nerd who thinks of himself as a 'cool kid'.
- Lizzie McGuire - Larry: Eccentric, stereotypically nerdy and uncool, Casanova Wannabe and Small Name, Big Ego, so yes, he fills this out.
- Family Ties - Irwin: He's extremely awkward, and wears Nerd Glasses and nerdy outfits. He's aware of his unpopularity, but he's still clingy to other people and shamelessly hits on Mallory.
- The Poison Apples: Molly is a huge nerd (her favourite book is the Oxford English Dictionary) and average-looking but she isn't shy, tends to take over conversations when no one asks her to and is less affected by her Friendless Background than Alice (who at least had some friends, if not close ones).
- Fuzzboy Total Pokemon Series: Nedrick gets along with just about everyone and goes out of his way to talk to new people, but is still a total dork who is trying to become the ultimate ninja.
- The Inkworld Trilogy - Orpheus: Although he mentions that he was an outcast due to his love for reading and nerdiness, his demanour is actually rather social, being able to talk to strangers and confront new situations with a lot of ease and apparent self-confidence.
- THE iDOLM@STER: SideM - Kyosuke: Among the Intelligence idols, Kyosuke stands out as one of the more excitable, fun-loving members.
- Sailor Moon Juuban Municipal Junior High School - Umino: Indubitably a nerd, but very outgoing and talkative with shades of the Casanova Wannabe (although this aspect disappears after he gets a girlfriend).
- Questionable Content - Tilly: Despite their geeky presentation, Tilly isn't the least bit shy and jumps at the chance to befriend Hannelore and Winslow.
- Pokémon Tabletop Utopus Region - Amber: A large part of her Season 2 character development is opening up to others more, and finding more occasions to celebrate life.
- My Candy Love Others - Samuel: His attire is sterotypically nerdy, and he's both very friendly and currently in a relationship.
- Young Sheldon: Other Characters - Tam: He tries so desperately to hang with the cool crowd and date hot chicks. And he fails miserably every time. - doesn't discuss lack of awareness of being a nerd
- The Suite Life of Zack & Cody - Agnes: A female example, as she's a rather dorky girl who acts annoying and clingy towards the title characters. - being annoying and clingy doesn't really mean they are unaware of their geekiness. Being an Abhorrent Admirer is part of being a Stereotypical Nerd, for example.
- The Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel - Josh: A football player, and also an avid gamer. - playing video games does not auto make someone a nerd and this has 0 mention of them being oblivious to their nerdiness.
- The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius - Sheen: An eccentric comic book-loving nerd. Unlike most examples, though, he's very unintelligent. - doesn't discuss lack of awareness of being a nerd
- Escape from Furnace - Zee: Is aware of his nerdiness but doesn't necessarily try to hide it. character has to be unaware of their nerdiness
- Kiki's Delivery Service - Dogged Nice Guy: Tombo, who combines this with Extraverted Nerd. It takes a while, but eventually Kiki warms up to him.
- Nerds Are Virgins - Daria: Both Daria and her artsy best friend Jane end the series as virgins; of the other notable characters in their grade, the only one not implied to have sex is (Extraverted Nerd) Upchuck. There was an episode where Daria and Tom almost have sex, but Daria can't go through with it.
- Maximum Fun Chamber - Daria: (Extraverted Nerd) Upchuck makes a comment in Ms. Barch's class, and she threatens to send him to "independent study". Upchuck shudders and says "No... not the closet..."
- Give Geeks a Chance: This is the entire point of A Codette World Tour - to develop a romance between the scrawny, tech-savvy Extraverted Nerd Cody and the beautiful Granola Girl surfer Bridgette. However, getting to that point is easier said than done when Bridgette believes Alejandro to be the man of her dreams...
- Literal Transformative Experience - My Babysitter's a Vampire: Before being bitten, Erica was a shy nerd, awkward and unpopular. Her transformation into a vampire not only increased her beauty, but also gave her a personality makeover; she was suddenly a confident Alpha Bitch. This contrasts the other new vampires in the film, (Extraverted Nerd) Rory and Sarah, who pretty much keep their personalities intact after being bitten.
- Live-Action TV: Male example in (who else?) (Extraverted Nerd) Steve Urkel, whose undying devotion to Laura is not received well at all. But that has just as much (or more) to do with his outrageously weird personality than the way he looks.
- Super Ringer - Family Matters: Extraverted Nerd Steve Urkel tries to recruit Jerk Jock Eddie Winslow as his partner in a 2-on-2 inner city basketball tournament...
- School Forced Us Together: The three main characters of The Poison Apples have hardly anything in common besides having Wicked Stepmothers: Alice is a Lonely Rich Kid from Brooklyn Heights, Reena is a Lovable Alpha Bitch from Beverly Hills and Molly is an Extraverted Nerd from the middle of nowhere. What brings them together? Boarding School.
- Poster-Gallery Bedroom - Total Drama: From the Island cast, Katie and Sadie's have pictures of male models on the wall; (Extraverted Nerd) Cody has a swimsuit model and a man in front of a microphone (a comedian, maybe?); Beth has stuffed animals, as does Lindsay, plus various pictures of herself in swimsuits; and DJ has sports awards, a lot of CDs and a picture of his mother.
- Third-Option Love Interest - Total Drama Island originally featured a Love Triangle between Gwen, Trent and Trent's friend (Extraverted Nerd) Cody, who stepped aside when it became clear Trent was the one she actually liked. By Total Drama World Tour, Gwen and Trent have broken up, but Gwen passes up Cody for Duncan instead. Cody just can't win, even more so when Sierra's involved.
- Despair Island - Cody: Adaptation Personality Change: Cody's personality is significantly altered from that of canon, transforming from a good-natured and childlike Casanova Wannabe and Extraverted Nerd to a lustful and dirty-minded creep with a one-track mind obsessed with women and little else.
- Galaxy High - Milo: He's got the looks and the brains, but he seems to get along with nearly everyone, and was apparently unanimously voted Class President.
- Now and Then - Scott: Doesn't let Chrissy's total disinterest stop him.
- Saved by the Bell - Screech: One of the most well known examples.
- Silicon Valley: He loves attention and being around people, and has a constant need for external validation. Plus, the colorful polos are definitely what one of these nerds would wear. - wearing colorful polos is not enough to be a nerd so this is a partial example potentially
- Stranded on Poké Island
- The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air - Carlton: Not originally, but more so as the series progresses.
- Victorious - Hollywood Arts - Sinjin: Even more than Robbie.
- Smosh Comics: Stevie.
- Inanimate Insanity: Two drinks if they're yelling at Lightbulb or (Extraverted Nerd) Fan.
- Superstar (1999): Mary Katherine.
- Henry Stickmin Series The Wall - Melvin: His bio says he's one.
- Four-Temperament Ensemble/Film - EuroTrip: Scotty (eclectic), Cooper (sanguine), Jenny (choleric), (Extraverted Nerd) Jamie (melancholic), and Mika (phlegmatic).
- The Proud Family: Myron. Suga Mama calls him "Urkel" at one point, a reference to another Extroverted Nerd, Steve Urkel of Family Matters. note
- Victorious: Robbie. Sikowitz compares him to Steve Urkel of Family Matters in the episode "Locked Up!".
- Degrassi: The Next Generation: (Toby, Rick, Connor, Wesley)
- Western Animation: Among Bart's loose friend group, Extraverted Nerd Martin Prince is this. In "Grade School Confidential" his Incredibly Lame Fun-filled birthday party breaks up when most of the guests get sick from bad oysters. When Bart questions how that could have affected Lisa given that she's a vegetarian, she admits that she just pretended to be sick as an excuse to leave. In "Bart on the Road," Bart, Nelson, and Milhouse initially don't want him with them on their road trip, only relenting when they realize that his $600 will be useful to them.
- Fall Out Boy: Patrick Stump (and to a lesser extent the rest of the band) in "Dance, Dance".
- Give Geeks a Chance: Reconstructed: Alice and Seamus decide to break up. Alice ends up becoming interested in Seamus' equally nerdy friend Bob, while Seamus meets nerdy Betty. Unlike their previous relationship, Alice and Seamus have genuine chemistry with their new partners.
- Batman Beyond S2 E13 "Terry's Friend Dates a Robot": Terry's Extraverted Nerd friend Howard Groote is planning to throw a party at his house while his parents are away, but has trouble attracting guests due to his low status on the High School Popularity Food Chain. One afternoon, when Howard joins Terry on an errand to pick up a synthoid robot at a factory for Bruce, he meets a shady factory employee who has been secretly designing and selling custom-made "pleasure synthoids" on the black market. Excited at the opportunity, he quickly purchases one for himself. With his new attractive girlfriend "Cynthia" by his side, Howard's popularity at school quickly skyrockets. Unfortunately, he soon learns that the factory worker programmed Cynthia to be a little too attached to him.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 23rd 2023 at 4:19:57 AM
Paging ~amathieu13 to the thread.
Anyway, I think I prefer disambiguating.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 19th 2023 at 10:36:27 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I do wonder if "a nerd who is not socially awkward" is a noteworthy enough of a subversion to the Stereotypical Nerd to be its own trope.
That concept's a little like ex-trope Hollywood Nerd, which went like "well this nerd has friends and is played by a good looking actor, unlike Real Nerds", which is to say it doesn't read very tropey at all.
I'm fine with disambiguating, moving current correct usage to Proud to Be a Geek, and adding a line to Stereotypical Nerd's description in the "socially awkward" section that goes something like "Even the ones that are extraverted and think they're good at talking to people still come off as painfully socially awkward"..
to disambig
Disambig and Adding a bit to Stereotypical Nerd
Edited by Tabs on Jul 20th 2023 at 11:28:54 AM
Mmmm. I can see the "not aware of their nerdiness" concept working, but I agree that the social-awkwardness is still a stereotype, perhaps even moreso than introversion (as being enthusiastic, chipper, and friendly doesn't have very much to do with someone's hobbies or intelligence unless they're being bullied or ostracized, and even then someone may still be that upbeat when they're with their friends or engaged in their hobbies). It's the whole idea of nerds being very smart in terms of books and numbers and their personal interests, but lacking charisma or an understanding of social cues. As a matter of fact I can think of more nerd characters who fit this definition than the apparently stereotypical "introverted and shy" definition.
The nerd that doesn't know they're a nerd seems distinct and worth yarding, since it's a different spin on the concept and has more to do with a character genuinely not recognizing their social role and not seeing the things they do as lame.
In other words, yard the oblivious definition and merge the current one into Stereotypical Nerd.
Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 20th 2023 at 2:35:49 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessI notice that "extraverted" is the less common spelling of "extroverted."
The spelling of "extraverted" is primarily limited to very technical psychological academic works and the works of Carl Jung.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraverted
Should we keep the "extraverted" name or rename to Extroverted Nerd?
Edited by Nen_desharu on Jul 20th 2023 at 5:13:39 AM
Kirby is awesome....bluntly speaking, that is the least of this trope's problems. The convo right now is on whether or not we're even keeping this trope vs disambig-ing it or merging it.
Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 21st 2023 at 10:03:03 AM
I agree, if this gets reworked it may be better to expand it to any Loser Archetype rather than just nerds. I feel there's something tropeworthy in the concept of a "loser" who's obnoxiously confident and lacking in self-awareness among his peers, but I guess that's for TRS.
As for Extraverted Nerd, for disambiguation.
I don't want to brag or anything but when it comes to being the worst, I'm always at the top!
for disambig.
Side note (I'm going to bring this to Ask the Tropers since I have other unrelated problems with it): I was wondering if we could transplant Tech Bro using the same description on the E.N. page, which already isn't too far off from this trope? Most of the ZCE E.N. examples at least more-or-less meet the definition of Tech Bro (like the Batman Beyond example), and its description spends way too much time contrasting the two tropes, along with Basement Dweller. The "tech bro is in good shape" and "real-life tech hubs" already cinch how the trope works in a modern context, so that leaves more room for note markup in regards to The New '20s IMO if anything else needs to be added.
Silver and gold, silver and goldTech Bro's issues would require their own thread.
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall...Assuming it has any, it's a newer launch and I've never seen it misused.
Anyway, a disambig could work too, but I'm still leaning towards just merging it into Stereotypical Nerd. I guess I'm not sure what else we'd disambig it with.
Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 22nd 2023 at 1:27:16 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessWe could probably disambig with Gentleman and a Scholar. Incidentally, it's definitely a lot easier to infer that a lot of characters under that trope are adults.
Silver and gold, silver and goldWe only disambig with tropes we expect to be able to move examples to. That one hardly seems similar enough that people would get the two confused when writing examples.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessFair enough. I was just thinking about the extroversion involved with each.
ETA: Maybe Nerds Are Naïve?
Edited by Coachpill on Jul 22nd 2023 at 1:45:53 PM
Silver and gold, silver and goldRe: Jay: Yeah, if there were any — probably should have thought that reply over more.
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper WallNerds Are Naïve is a thing nerds can be but none of the use was emphasizing these characters being ignorant about the world around them or about sex, which is what Nerds Are Naïve is about.
Many examples could fall under Stereotypical Nerd (not from the write-ups themselves which don't include enough info for SN, but from just knowing the characters, personally). Fewer could fall under Casanova Wannabe since that was one of the highlighted traits of an EN and many CW are geeky, nerdy, loser Abhorrent Admirers who think they have more game with the ladies than they actually do (Think Mclovin from Superbad). And then there's Proud to Be a Geek, which technically no example in the wick check fell under, but might be the closest to what Extraverted Nerd was trying to be. So as I said in my OP, a disambig could include the first 2 or all 3.
I'm still pretty agnostic between a disambig or a merge into Stereotypical Nerd. Both work for me.
Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 22nd 2023 at 5:25:13 AM
to the disambig option.
To-do list:
This is a confused trope all around. The name implies that the trope is about a character who is nerdy, but outgoing and sociable, as opposed to Stereotypical Nerds who are typically a Shrinking Violet, The Quiet One, and otherwise withdrawn due to shyness, awkwardness, bullying, or all of the above.
The actual definition however is a nerd who is unaware of their own nerdiness and often acts like a Casanova Wannabe. Off the bat, it's not immediately clear how being a Casanova Wannabe relates with being oblivious to one's own nerdiness, but I'm 99% sure this is a hangover from when this was an expy trope named "The Urkel", based on the character Steve Urkel from Family Matters, a Black and Nerdy Casanova Wannabe.
So I went into the wick check to see if the trope was being interpreted correctly. What I found was a ZCE /pothole magnet issue along with misuse: 60% of examples were either ZC Es/potholes. Only 14% were in-line with the "oblivious to one's nerdiness" definition. 16% were examples that went with the interpretation implied by the title and focused on nerdy characters being social and friendly. Only 5 of the 50 examples I saw even mentioned being a Casanova Wannabe or something related to it.
We could expand the trope to include the misuse (if we did so that would bump up correct examples to 30%; better but still not great), but I'm not sure "friendly/social nerd" is a meaningful split from Stereotypical Nerd. While many nerd characters are friendless loners, there are also many who are friendly and sociable, just within their own friend group and amongst other nerdy characters. And plenty stereotypical nerds have their social awkwardness manifest as a clumsy overeagerness to make friends; they're friendly but lack the ability to read social cues, making their attempts to do so awkward.
I do think the idea of "Oblivious to one's nerdiness" is tropeworthy, but more so as "Uncool and unashamed/unbothered by it". Stereotypical Nerds are often depicted as being either natural introverts or become introverted due to social reinforcement that their interests and hobbies are lame, uncool, and therefore shameful. Thinking back to Urkel, Urkel doesn't care about any of that. He's his chipper geeky/nerdy talkative self regardless of what others say or think about him.
Now, how distinct that is from Proud to Be a Geek is debatable. Maybe it'd be better to move away from the nerd focus to a more generalized "loser" focus. All that being said, I didn't come across any in the wick check that neatly fits that definition either, so that's probably an idea for the salvage yard or TLP.
Options:
I'm ok with any of the options (and likely any others folks can come up with) apart from expansion.
Wick check:
Wicks Checked: 50Definition: A nerd who is unaware of how nerdy they are and often acts the Casanova Wannabe thinking they are much suaver than they are.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 23rd 2023 at 4:19:57 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.