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Really a Useful Note: Senpai Kohai

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    Original post 
Senpai/Kōhai has a number of issues. It tropes the social concept/hierarchical relationship between a senior and a junior in a school or a workplace environment... and that's it, No Plot Significance whatsoever, making it more like a Useful Notes rather than a storytelling trope. The broader concept is already covered by UsefulNotes.Japanese Honorifics and its sistertrope UsefulNotes.Korean Honorifics, and the fact that both are UN pages, is another strong argument against this being a trope.

Also, this trope page neglects the fact that the senpai/kōhai terms are a shared concept in multiple Asian cultures. These terms aren't exclusive to Japan, as Korea has seonbae/heobae and Vietnam has tiền bối/hậu bối, which, along with the Japanese ones, are derived from the Chinese hòubèi/qiánbèi or xianbei. There's also the Japanese backslang paisen which is a playful or humorous way to say senpai, obviously (who knew even honorifics can have slang?). End of linguistic lesson. My point is that this is an "X trope but Japanese," even when it's present in other Asian fiction and not unique to Japanese fiction.

If all of this isn't enough, we move to the bigger problem. Being a not-so-tropeworthy concept made it attract lots of "X is the senpai/kōhai of Y" or "X has this dynamic with Y" ZCEs. The wick check findings prove that:

  • 41/50 are chairs-y examples and contextless potholes, or 82%.
  • 3/50 are examples where these terms/this dynamic is used as a plot point, or 6%.
  • 6/50 are examples with other various contexts that don't share a common pattern to form a cohesive concept, or 12%.

In a more detailed analysis: the majority of the wicks are "X is the Senpai/Kōhai to Y" or "characters have this relationship" ZCEs or contextless potholes, which don't tell us anything noteworthy about this concept's usage in fiction. 15 of the wicks in the "chairs" category being nothing but potholes suggest that this is very close to becoming a Pothole Magnet. Moreover, there are some examples where this dynamic is made to be a plot-important element; however, there are only 3 examples that aren't enough to be their own trope. Finally, there are some other examples with various kinds of context, but they don't have anything in common to be their own trope either.

  • Solutions:
    • Cut the page. There's no need for a merge since they both already have their own sections in Japanese Honorifics.
    • "But selkies, this is distinct/significant enough to have its own page!" cried the tropers. Then, we can keep it but move the page to the Useful Notes namespace. Perhaps we can make it for all the Asian senpai/kōhai honorifics.
    • Yard the "senpai/kōhai dynamic and terms are used as a plot point" (3 examples) and the "senior/junior dynamic where the junior deeply respects and looks up to the senior, who's reliable and more experienced" concepts (haven't found examples of this, but hey, it's still a viable idea).

Wick check:

Senpai/Kōhai refers to the Japanese dynamic between a junior (kōhai) and a senior (senpai) in school and work settings, which is honestly not tropeworthy as-is. Tropes that involve honorifics and terms of address are all in the Useful Notes namespace, and this "trope" isn't different from a UN page since it doesn't describe any storytelling. This wick check, then, will confirm whether there's more to this trope than mere ZCEs/chairs-y examples and if there's additional context than just "X & Y have this relationship" and if there are other narrower concepts here.

Wicks checked: 50/50.

  • Quick analysis:
    • 41/50 are chairs-y examples and contextless potholes, or 82%.
    • 3/50 are examples where these terms/this dynamic is used as a plot point, or 6%.
    • 6/50 are examples with other various contexts that don't share a common pattern to form a concept, or 12%.


  • Long Analysis: The majority of the wicks are "X is the Senpai/Kohai to Y" or "characters have this relationship" ZCEs or contextless potholes which don't tell us anything noteworthy about this concept's usage in fiction. 15 of the wicks in the "chairs" category being nothing but potholes suggest that this is very close to becoming a Pothole Magnet. Moreover, there are some examples where this dynamic is made a plot-important element, however, there are only 3 examples that aren't enough to be their own trope. Finally, there are some other examples with various kinds of context but they don't have anything in common to be their own trope either.

  • Solutions:
    • Cut the page. There's no need for a merge, especially since it's already mentioned on Japanese Honorifics.
    • "But selkies, this is distinct/significant enough to have its own page!" cried the tropers. Then, we can keep it but move the page to the Useful Notes namespace, like how Korean Sibling Terminology is already mentioned in Korean Honorifics, but it still has its own page.
    • Yard the "senpai/kōhai dynamic and terms are used as a plot point" (has 3 examples) and the "senior/junior dynamic where the junior deeply respects and looks up to the senior, who's reliable and more experienced" concepts (haven't found examples of this, but hey, it's still a viable idea).


    open/close all folders 

Chairs and contextless potholes:

    "X is the senpai/kohai to Y" or "characters have this relationship" (41/50) 
  1. Affectionate Nickname: Rent-A-Girlfriend, Sasano, a sempai of Kazuya's group of friends, is generally called "Sasa-pai," a play on his name and the sempai honorific. — Nothing noteworthy in terms of the senpai/kōhai dynamic
  2. Affectionate Nickname: In Tamagotchi, Orenetchi considers Kuromametchi his sempai and likes to call him "Kuromame-san".
  3. Age-Stereotypical Food: Discussed during Asteroid in Love's Christmas Episode. The club accidentally made a hotpot that's too spicy for Mira and Mai, but to their senpais Mikage and Mari, the hotpot has a nice kick. Mai concludes resistance to spiciness is what people means by an adult's palate... until Endou-sensei choked on the same hotpot's spiciness.
  4. Bait-and-Switch Lesbians: Bubblegum Crisis: Tokyo 2040 spent its first half building the Senpai/Kōhai relationship — and Pseudo-Romantic Friendship — between Priss and Linna. The final half of the series drops this subplot like a hot potato for a sudden romance between Priss and Leon that fits the "offscreen explanation" part of the trope to a T; Leon shows up at her club while she's on stage, does a smarmy clap for her, Priss grins a bit, and from there on in they're treated as dating. Ironically, it was the original Bubblegum Crisis OVA that gave rise to the mantra among many early anime fans that "All women in anime are lesbians. Unless they're bisexual." — Reference only
  5. Bust-Contrast Duo: Fate/stay night: The two closest girls to Shirou in his school are Rin, the confident and Tsundere small-chested girl and Sakura, his kouhai, who (beyond her meekness and other issues) is a gentle and caring girl who's bustier than Rin. They happen to be sisters.
  6. Double Standard: Rape, Male on Male: Souichi's later relationship with his kohai Morinaga in the Spin-Off series The Tyrant Falls in Love, most of the comedy resulting from Morinaga and Souichi not fitting the traditional BL "cold-hearted seme/cheerful uke" dynamic at all.
  7. I Do Not Speak Nonverbal: In Eyeshield 21, Komusubi only speaks in "Powerful-ese", the language of powerful men. Which means the only members of the main cast who understand him are his Sempai Kurita - and, presumably due to Rule of Funny, Mamori. This is important at one point in the story, when Kurita doubts his strength so much that he can no longer understand Komusubi.
  8. Keigo: Persona 5 Royal features Kasumi Yoshizawa, who always uses very formal Japanese, which is most likely at least partly because practically everyone she interacts with is either her sempai or an adult authority figure. She continues to speak this way after losing her facade and reverting to being Sumire, implying both the Yoshizawa sisters spoke this way.
  9. Satellite Love Interest: The Kawai Complex Guide to Manors and Hostel Behavior introduces two Third Option Love Interests near the end of its run: Usa's kohai and Ritsu's senpai. They hardly have anything else to them except for providing yet another roadblock to the obvious Usa/Ritsu endgame.
  10. Took the Wife's Name: Yandere Simulator: The Aishi surname seems to always be passed through the wife. It's notorious for the fact that every woman in the family is a Yandere who kidnaps her high-school Senpai and forces him into a relationship. So, in this case, the husband taking the wife's surname (not by choice) seems to indicate the nature of their relationship and the way Yandere-ism runs in the family.
  11. A Death in the Limelight: The KanColle anime adaptation does this with aplomb to Kisaragi. After brief appearances in the first two episodes, Episode 3 is devoted almost entirely to Kisaragi and her Senpai/Kōhai dynamic with Mutsuki. The episode piles death flag after death flag onto Kisaragi before finally sinking her with a Last Breath Bomb.
  12. Anime.Cute High Earth Defense Club Love: One day, En and Atsushi are hanging out at the local bath house, run by the family of their kouhai Yumoto Hakone, when a pink wombat claiming to be an alien falls out of a portal and tasks them with saving the Earth.
  13. Anime.Majokko Meg Chan: Leon sees Meg as her sempai.
  14. Anime.Waiting In The Summer: Ichika and Remon are always referred to as "sempai", which one would expect at a Japanese school. But things get interesting when Manami calls Remon Sempai too. — "Things get interesting" doesn't tell us much
  15. AxCrazy.Anime And Manga: Negima! Magister Negi Magi: In this series, most evil characters were at least cold or sensible, and at the most just a bit odd. That is till Tsukuyomi, deprived of seeing her sempai Setsuna for months turned from merely fight-happy with a touch of blood-lust to a complete Psycho Lesbian for her rival swordswoman.
  16. BrokenPedestal.Fan Works: Saki: In Yumi, Maiko Miura Yumi's senpai and old girlfriend turned out to be this, after moving on to university and dumping Yumi for someone else without even telling her.
  17. CharacterGush.Anime And Manga: Naruto: Yamato is competent, clever, hilariously unfunny, and an adorably friendly kouhai to Kakashi. Also, he just so happens to be quite the badass; his special technique can pretty much tell your Sealed Evil in a Can to shut up and play nice.
  18. Characters.Adventure Quest Worlds Throne Of Darkness: Ziri thinks of the Hero as one. When the Hero addresses Ziri in "Mysterious Dungeon", he says "Sempai noticed me!"
  19. Characters.Amakusa 1637: Senpai/Kōhai: (Eiji), He's one year younger than Natsuki and the others.
  20. Characters.Beyond The Boundary: (Akihito), He's Mirai's sempai.
  21. Characters.Beyond The Boundary: (Mirai), She's Akihito's kohai.
  22. Characters.Classicaloid: (Franz), He admires his "Beethoven-sempai".
  23. Characters.DAYS: (Kimishita), Something he takes very seriously. Rude as he is, he addresses all the third-years with "senpai" (except Mizuki, who is "Captain") and uses Keigo when talking to them. — Doesn't add much
  24. Characters.Demon Slayer Kimetsu No Yaiba Twelve Kizuki: (Kaigaku, Under New Upper Rank 6's folder), He was once Zenitsu's senior disciple, but Zenitsu no longer considered him as such after he became a demon.
  25. Characters.Fate Hollow Ataraxia: (Sakura), She is Shirou's kohai.
  26. Characters.Fly Me To The Moon: (Kaname), She was Nasa's kohai in middle school.
  27. Characters.Getsuyoubi No Tawawa: (Kouhai-chan, Under Recurring Cast's folder), Appropriately, with the senior office worker that's only known as "Senpai".
  28. Characters.Hakuouki: (Souma), He calls Chizuru "Yukimura-senpai".
  29. Characters.Horimiya: (Yuriko), With Kyousuke. They met when she was a third year, and he a first year in high school.
  30. Characters.Lagoon Lounge: (Yuujirou), He is much bigger than Kuugo, but is actually younger than him.
  31. Characters.Mousou Telepathy : (Kiyoshi), Has this dynamic with Toda, his senior on the school soccer team.
  32. Characters.Nichijou: (Koujirou, Under Shirtless Scene): Derisashu~. It happens during the Josei segment in which Mio believes Nano and Sasahara are dating.
  33. Characters.Sket Dance: (Pocket-Dan), The "kohai" (to the Sket Dan) group of helping people in Kaimei High School. Formed after they give up their plans to hijack the Sket Dan.
  34. Characters.Sword Art Online Kazuto Kirigaya: Kirito became the Kohai to Sortilena's Sempai at the Swordcraft Academy.
    • Has this relationship with Ronye.
  35. Characters.The World God Only Knows Supporting: (Maijima), To Jun. — Really?
  36. Characters.Touken Ranbu Uchigatana: (Inaba), The Senpai to Kotegiri's Kouhai.
  37. Characters.World Witches: (Yoshika), She becomes Shizuka's senior in Road to Berlin after the latter joins the 501st.
  38. Characters.Zyuden Sentai Kyoryuger Protagonists: (Auxiliary Kyoryugers — General Tropes' folder), The modern team defers to their predecessors as their sempai.
  39. CluelessChickMagnet.Anime And Manga: Sekai Kamiki of Gundam Build Fighters Try: Being a character whose only interests are eating, sleeping, martial arts training, and longing to fight strong, honorable opponents, he has completely no clue (or if he has, it's definitely not in a romantic sense) as to why Fumina, Gyanko, and Shia are all attracted to him in one way or the other.
  40. Creator.Konami Yoshida: Konami Yoshida is a seiyuu born June 6, 1967 who had a Senpai/Kōhai relationship with another veteran voice actor, Kae Araki (Konami being the Kohai).
  41. Creator.Yukana: As some radio shows have revealed, she has an interesting Senpai/Kōhai relationship with Tomokazu Sugita; she would often act as his Cool Big Sis and would tease him like a cute little brother.

Additional context:

    Senpai/kohai as a plot point/significant to the plot in some way (3/50) 
  1. Anime.Free: By Dive to the Future, all of the younger year characters (Nagisa, Rei, Gou, Aiichiro, and to some extent, Momo,) have become the new upperclassmen to some new students to the Swimming Club. Their dynamic and how they adjust to being the seniors looks to be a subplot while the college kids have their own dilemmas. — This particular dynamic serves as a plotline
  2. Characters.Re LIFE: (An Onoya), The kohai to Yoake's senpai, as she's his junior at work. Her Wham Line, revealing who she is, comes when she calls him as such, as they're supposed to be equals as high school students.Important to the plot; reveals something new
  3. Anime.Pretty Cure All Stars: The newest team are the kohais to the other Cures. A recurring theme of the All Stars movies is that the senpais support their kohai in order for them to stop the Big Bad and help them to get them out of eventual Heroic BSoD. — The senpais provide support for their kohais + the terms seem to be a plot point
    • One noteworthy instance of this is in New Stage 2, when Peace nervously asks Sword if they should join their teammates in fighting Kage, to which Sword calmly agrees while referring to Peace as senpai. Being acknowledged as Sword's senpai gives Peace a bit of a confidence boost, enough so that she uses her Peace Thunder with the same resolute expression she had during the episode about her dead father rather than letting the electricity shock her like usual.

    Other varied context (6/50) 
  1. Onee-sama: [...] it has become so closely identified with a particular brand of the Senpai/Kōhai relationship that it is very difficult to use without carrying the connotations of attraction.
  2. Values Dissonance: The Senpai/Kōhai and various related tropes are commonplace in many, many anime and manga (it would be easier to list those in which they don't appear) and are an accepted part of Japanese society. In the West, however, where respect is usually given equally on the basis of talent and seniority, rather than just the latter, the opinions of such a system can range from hopelessly quaint to downright insulting, especially if the kohai is more competent, few years of experience separate the two, or both. — This dynamic exists in Japanese media but it's a polarizing issue in the West
  3. Characters.Fate Grand Order Archers N To Z: (Sei), Under The Nicknamer, She calls the protagonist "Chan-Masu", fitting with her gyaru personality. She also refers to Shikibu as "Kaorucchi", Osakabehime as "Kabe", Medb as "Medb-chi", Suzuka Gozen as "Suzuka-paisen" ("senpai" with the syllables switched), Summer Okita as "Jayjay"... The more one hangs out with her, the more obvious it is that she gives everyone silly nicknames. — Usage of the backslang ver of senpai indicates silliness and Gyaru Girl personality
  4. Characters.Fly Me To The Moon: Like Kaname, she's Nasa's kohai. She ends up getting it backwards, and calling him "Paisen" instead. — She's ditzy and this hints at her personality.
  5. Characters.Bang Dream Hello Happy World: (Kaoru), Looks out for others, and despite her seeming ditziness, some of the girls seem to be aware she can be relied on, or realize it at some point. — A senior is reliable
  6. Characters.DAYS: (Hayase), Always insists on being addressed as "Hayase-senpai" by underclassmen and gets somewhat unpleasant if he isn't. — Insisting on being called by a certain honorific

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 13th 2023 at 11:00:53 AM

GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#26: Apr 11th 2023 at 6:08:39 AM

Hooked a crowner for whether to merge with UsefulNotes.Japanese Honorifics since five votes isn't enough.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
selkies Professional Wick Checker Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Professional Wick Checker
#27: Apr 11th 2023 at 1:24:01 PM

Those who voted against merging this trope with Japanese Honorifics, can we know why? Is there another solution that you prefer other than the one in the crowner?

Berrenta MOD How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#28: Apr 13th 2023 at 11:55:34 AM

Calling in favor of a merge to Japanese Honorifics + salvage yard the dynamics.

Edit: It looks like it was about a day early, but we'll make do for now.

Edited by Berrenta on Apr 13th 2023 at 2:07:53 PM

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
selkies Professional Wick Checker Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Professional Wick Checker
#29: Apr 13th 2023 at 2:58:34 PM

What should be done now? Should we stick a to-do list to the thread?

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#30: Apr 13th 2023 at 9:04:07 PM

[up]I just did that. I left off Yarding since that's a free action.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#31: Apr 13th 2023 at 10:30:06 PM

I redirected the page.

Here are the wicks.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Ayumi-chan Aramis from Calvard (Apprentice) Relationship Status: Serial head-patter
#32: Apr 15th 2023 at 8:00:02 PM

Took a gander at the character pages and now, I finished the A section of it.

Edit: Finished B!

Edited by Ayumi-chan on Apr 16th 2023 at 4:26:16 PM

She/Her | Currently cleaning N/A
NoUsername i'm at the combination she and it Since: May, 2012
i'm at the combination she and it
#33: May 6th 2023 at 9:27:12 AM

just added a salvage concept (the second one, where the junior looks up to or pines for the senior) to the yard. i haven't done any TLP drafts or yarding before so let me know if anything is off

Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#34: May 12th 2023 at 9:16:32 AM

Took care of one wick while dealing with TRS cleanup for another effort.

We're below 1200 left.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
selkies Professional Wick Checker Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Professional Wick Checker
#35: May 12th 2023 at 9:45:35 AM

Not much but we're down to 1180 now.

Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#36: Jul 13th 2023 at 9:40:16 PM

Going to shift my focus here, to get it going. We're at 1159 now.

Edit: 1158; took out a ghost wick.

Edit 2: Sempai/Kōhai got a wick since the thread got dormant; notifier sent and wick purged.

Edited by Berrenta on Jul 13th 2023 at 11:46:41 AM

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#37: Jul 15th 2023 at 7:11:51 AM

Sempai/Kouhai got a wick yesterday; notifier sent.

Down to 1135; things should speed up tomorrow as I'm off work that day.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#38: Jul 17th 2023 at 8:36:44 PM

We are now down into the triple digits.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#39: Jul 19th 2023 at 10:44:21 AM

Down to less than 800.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#40: Jul 20th 2023 at 9:58:26 PM

We may finish soon. 300 remain!

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#44: Jul 21st 2023 at 6:42:36 PM

Locking, then.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Add Post

Trope Repair Shop: Senpai/Kohai
11th Apr '23 6:07:06 AM

Crown Description:

Senpai Kohai has a number of issues. It tropes the social concept/hierarchical relationship between a senior and a junior in a school or a workplace environment... and that's it, No Plot Significance whatsoever, making it more like a Useful Notes rather than a storytelling trope. The broader concept is already covered by UsefulNotes.Japanese Honorifics and its sistertrope UsefulNotes.Korean Honorifics, and the fact that both are UN pages, is another strong argument against this being a trope. What should be done with Senpai Kohai?

Total posts: 44
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