To-do list:

• Dewick Acceptable Targets and its former subtropes because it is now an index and not a trope/YMMV item, and its former subtropes have been turned into redirects. These are the redirects to dewick:
  • Acceptable Ethnic Targets
  • Acceptable Hard Luck Targets
  • Acceptable Hobby Targets
  • Acceptable Political Targets
  • Acceptable Professional Targets
  • Acceptable Religious Targets
• Dewick Once Acceptable Targets, which is now a redirect to Values Dissonance.
• Place any promising-looking, possibly tropable content on Sandbox.Negative Depictions Sandbox

Original post:

Acceptable Targets and its various subtropes are supposed to be about groups of people that society deems acceptable to make fun of. However, the usage suffers from a few major issues. Acceptable Targets is both a ZCE magnet and a pothole magnet. Those two categories alone made up over half the wicks, and that's only counting the entries that had no examples with context at all. There are several other entries with ZCEs but have at least one example with context, which I put in the appropriate category for that example. The vast majority of examples that do have context don't talk about how the group is acceptable to make fun of and are therefore redundant with Take That!. The few that do are generally hypotheticals. The examples don't show the audience's perspective either, which is unacceptable because the tropes are YMMV. To summarize the Acceptable Targets Wick Check:

• Something is explicitly okay to make fun of - 6/52
• Something is made fun of - 15/52
• Something is repeatedly made fun of - 3/52
• ZCE/Pothole/Related Trope/Misc. - 28/52

The discussion thread came up with two main ideas for how to deal with this:

• Disambiguate between Take That!, Author Tract, and possibly other tropes
• Retool the trope into something along the lines of "A work repeatedly and consistently makes fun of a specific thing throughout," preferably with a new name.

Wick check for this thread:

MOD EDIT: This thread's scope covers Acceptable Targets' subtropes in addition to Acceptable Targets itself. The full list:

• Acceptable Targets
  • Acceptable Ethnic Targets
  • Acceptable Hard Luck Targets
  • Acceptable Hobby Targets
  • Acceptable Political Targets
  • Acceptable Professional Targets
  • Acceptable Religious Targets
  • Once Acceptable Targets

This thread does not cover Unacceptable Targets as a wick check determined it was not necessary.

MOD EDIT: Copying the wick checks from the previous TRS thread here for reference purposes regarding usage. Note that it does not cover Unacceptable Targets or Once Acceptable Targets because that thread only covered Acceptable Targets and the Acceptable X Targets subtropes.

Acceptable Targets: 2474+132(redirect) wicks, 23,038 inbounds

Only 16 (14 discounting in-universe) out of 50 examples are valid as audience reactions. And all 16 are either such common targets (like Nazis) it’s its own trope, against RL people pushing ROCEJ, or have issues that make them suspect.

Acceptable Ethnic Targets: 148 wicks, 2,045 inbounds

Only 14 (9 discounting in-univsere) out of 50 valid, and are either common targets or in-universe.

Acceptable Hard Luck Targets: 37 wicks, 523 inbounds

ALL of the non in-universe are misused.

Acceptable Hobby Targets: 46 wicks, 860 inbounds

ALL of the non in-universe are misused.

Acceptable Political Targets: 220 wicks, 4275 inbounds

Only 12 (9 discounting in-univsere) out of 50 valid. Many of the WNAO are recent political ones that push ROCEJ, arguing this trope should be No Real Life Examples, Please!

Acceptable Professional Targets: 161 wicks, 1878 inbounds

Only 15 (5 discounting in-univsere) out of 50 valid.

Acceptable Religious Targets: 128 wicks, 4985 inbounds

Only 8 (4 discounting in-univsere) out of 50 valid.

Final tally: out of 283 total, only 41 non in-universe examples are valid audience opinions as opposed to the works/creators opinion. An 85.5% misuse. Joker (2019), Thirty Rock, Snow Dogs, 19 Kids and Counting, Villette, and The Jewish Americans are the only 5 that don’t fall under another trope and properly explain it as an audience reaction with enough objective history or explanation to avoid any ROCEJ.

Edited by Tabs on Feb 7th 2023 at 1:46:31 AM

Paging ~badtothebaritone and ~Ferot_Dreadnaught to the thread as requested.

Giving my own thoughts with the mod hat off:

• The Acceptable [noun] Targets subtropes are The Same, but More Specific and should be folded into Acceptable Targets if we keep it, and deprecated alongside it if we deprecate it.
• Acceptable Targets and the Acceptable [noun] Targets are probably redundant with Take That! at least (probably also Author Tract per what the OP said), and they have no reason to be classified as subjective because it's objective fact if a work has a target it frequently attacks. Plus, they were made YMMV pretty much unilaterally several years ago (two or three people said they should be YMMV solely because Unacceptable Targets was followed by indexing it as YMMV, without a wick check, without checking beforehand to see if it was really equivalent to Unacceptable Targets' situation instead of something to evaluate on a case-by-case basis, and without mod approval). They're also NRLEP due to the previous TRS thread.
• Once Acceptable Targets is probably redundant with Dude, Not Funny! and Values Dissonance. (This one isn't NRLEP because the previous TRS thread didn't cover it.)
• Unacceptable Targets is probably redundant with Dude, Not Funny! and possibly also Values Dissonance. (This one isn't NRLEP because the previous TRS thread didn't cover it.)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 28th 2023 at 11:34:58 AM

Disambiguate all Targets. We have other tropes for when people find (un)satisfying someone getting mocked in the work because of their group (The Scrappy, Values Resonance and Catharsis Factor?), and it's a bit too much of a moral call for YMMV. If they to be made non-YMMV, we have tropes for that too.

For easier reference:

• Acceptable Targets
  • Acceptable Ethnic Targets
  • Acceptable Hard Luck Targets
  • Acceptable Hobby Targets
  • Acceptable Political Targets
  • Acceptable Professional Targets
  • Acceptable Religious Targets
  • Once Acceptable Targets
  • Unacceptable Targets

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 28th 2023 at 9:07:55 PM

I agree with most of this except for

Acceptable Targets and the Acceptable [noun] Targets are probably redundant with Take That! at least (probably also Author Tract per what the OP said)

Take That! is specifically to make fun of other works or creators, not a group of people. And Author Tract relies on the author's own opinions, not a trend observed in several types of media.

I feel the concept of "groups that people are fine with being portrayed in a negative light" has merit in existing as at least a Definition Only Page or an Index, since we have several tropes that use the concept as their backbone, such as Evil Lawyer Joke, Redheads Are Uncool, Teeny Weenie, French Jerk, Fat Bastard, Everyone Hates Mimes, etc.

Edited by BlackMage43 on Jan 28th 2023 at 10:12:42 AM

Don't remember where I said it but I basically agree with ^, most of the Acceptable X Targets are worth TLP/yarding as objective tropes. If an "acceptable target" already has a trope for specific/stereotypical negative depictions of it, examples should be moved there, e.g. in Acceptable Professional Targets

• "Accounting" could be the basis for an Accountants Are Dull trope or similar;
• Several tropes in the "Service and retail" section already exist and are linked in the description; can be moved to Burger Fool, Soul-Sucking Retail Job etc.

Edited by Synchronicity on Jan 28th 2023 at 1:17:32 PM

+1 to the above. They can be indexes or objective tropes as imo they aren't redundant with any existing tropes.

We can always yard anything objective, like Professional Stereotypes to parallel National Stereotypes. (noting that Acceptable Targets is indexed at Stereotype). Acceptable Hobby Targets would be easier to remake since it's effectively already an index.

Didn't realize Take That! was limited to works/creators being targeted. I thought it was one-off jabs while Acceptable Targets were regularly subject to such

Any group that is targeted of enough to be considered acceptable probably has/deserves it's own trope.

And it was pointed out Once Acceptable Targets can be moved to Values Dissonance and Unacceptable Targets are Dude, Not Funny! which disallows examples. It seems we're treating AT as targeted for comedy, but what about non-comedic serious bashings/condemnations of groups? Is that something we'd even want/allow?

I was thinking the best fix would be to make Acceptable Targets how the work treats them, but in light of these I'm now leaning to disambiguating or making a no examples item. But we should definitely fold the Acceptable [noun] Targets with AT.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jan 29th 2023 at 12:01:15 PM

Courtesy link to the Trope Talk thread, with some history and background on how this "trope" got where it is now in comment 10 (my first of the thread). In light of that history, I can support making this an index along the lines suggested by Black Mage 43, with a new trope at a new name for things a work likes to target repeatedly.

Edited by MorganWick on Jan 29th 2023 at 1:00:45 AM

Agree with Amonimus, Black Mage, and Synch. I really like the idea of turning some of these into objective tropes / stereotypes if there is no already existing trope to move examples to.

I agree with the disambig option. I've even seen Acceptable Targets used to describe individual works that are hated on their YMMV pages. Also, the works part of Unacceptable Targets is redundant with Sacred Cow.

I think we should turn the tropeworthy ideas (like the Accounting one) into valid tropes (like what Amathieu was alluding to), and disambiguate the rest. to turning Acceptable Targets itself into a disambig.

I can see Once Acceptable Targets and Unacceptable Targets being redundant with Values Dissonance, so I won't mind merging those.

As for the rest, I'm good with a disambiguation, plus any tropes that will be sent to TLP can split off.

Edited by Berrenta on Jan 29th 2023 at 8:15:25 AM

I'm fine with disambiguating all of them (or turning Acceptable Targets into a regular index, along with stripping the YMMV status, and disambiguating the rest). Maybe it would be worth disambiguating the Acceptable [subject] Targets subtropes separately from the supertrope, since there are some specific tropes to list on those (such as listing profession-based tropes like Evil Lawyer Joke on Acceptable Professional Targets after disambiguating the latter, but not listing those on the others).

Edit: And I'd be fine with Yarding/TLPing stuff as objective tropes, since I'd rather start over with those instead of doing it through this thread.

Edit: Oh, right, and I take back what I said about Take That!, which may need to be taken to TRS itself at some point (but that's outside this thread's scope).

Edit: And if we keep Acceptable Targets, with or without keeping the subtropes separate, I think they should be objective because whether the audience agrees with them being acceptable doesn't matter, since it's about what the works and the creators consider acceptable, which is directly observable in the work without requiring a value judgment. If we listed every trope an audience might disagree with the execution of as subjective, everyone's Pet-Peeve Trope and everything on the Writing Pitfall Index would be listed as subjective, and tropes about specific targets would be listed as subjective as well (such as Evil Lawyer Joke being YMMV because lawyers might not like those jokes, but it's not YMMV and shouldn't be because whether a work contains a joke about lawyers being bad people is objectively observable).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 29th 2023 at 1:35:13 PM

We're almost at the three-day mark. Are these our options? Note that Yarding is not listed because that's a free action. (Yes, I know the list is long. This is a batch thread, so I don't know if it's possible to keep it brief.)

• Convert Acceptable Targets into an index for specific targets (such as Evil Lawyer Joke); this would mean removing its YMMV status
• Disambiguate Acceptable Ethnic Targets, Acceptable Hard Luck Targets, Acceptable Hobby Targets, Acceptable Political Targets, Acceptable Professional Targets, and Acceptable Religious Targets between pages related to specific targets (such as disambiguating Acceptable Professional Targets between Burger Fool, Evil Lawyer Joke, Soul-Sucking Retail Job, and possibly other pages) if there is not consensus to redirect/merge them with Acceptable Targets.
• Redirect/merge Acceptable Ethnic Targets, Acceptable Hard Luck Targets, Acceptable Hobby Targets, Acceptable Political Targets, Acceptable Professional Targets, and Acceptable Religious Targets with Acceptable Targets (if Acceptable Targets is made into an index, they will be redirects to the index).
• Redirect Once Acceptable Targets to Values Dissonance
• Redirect Once Acceptable Targets to Dude, Not Funny!
• Disambiguate Once Acceptable Targets between Dude, Not Funny!, Values Dissonance, and possibly other pages
• Convert Acceptable Targets and, if there is not consensus to redirect/merge them with Acceptable Targets, Acceptable Ethnic Targets, Acceptable Hard Luck Targets, Acceptable Hobby Targets, Acceptable Political Targets, Acceptable Professional Targets, and Acceptable Religious Targets into objective tropes for how works treat the targets (note that all of these tropes are already No Real Life Examples, Please!)
• Merge Unacceptable Targets with Dude, Not Funny! (which is In-Universe Examples Only)
• Merge Unacceptable Targets with Values Dissonance
• Disambiguate Unacceptable Targets between Dude, Not Funny!, Values Dissonance, and possibly other pages

Note that while I listed an option for converting Acceptable Targets and the Acceptable X Targets subtropes (if there is not consensus to merge them) into objective tropes for how works treat the targets, I did not do the same for Once Acceptable Targets or Unacceptable Targets because I fail to see any reason to keep them separate from the suggested merge/disambiguation targets.

Also, putting this part in a separate paragraph because it's important, and is related to a source of confusion in the previous thread. If merging the Acceptable X Targets subtropes with Acceptable Targets has consensus at all, a merge will be done. In the previous thread, there was confusion regarding crowner wording regarding whether to merge or whether to keep them separate, and with this thread, consensus to merge will mean that they get merged no matter what the other options say (which means that merging is mutually exclusive with disambiguating the Acceptable X Targets subtropes, but the merge option has no affect on anything related to Once Acceptable Targets or Unacceptable Targets because they are being handled separately).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 30th 2023 at 9:50:44 AM

I can sort of see the reasoning for grouping Once Acceptable Targets as Acceptable Targets + time, but why are we actioning Unacceptable Targets without evidence of misuse?

I expanded this thread's scope to include it shortly after it was created, and the concern is with redundancy with Values Dissonance and Dude, Not Funny! instead of misuse, anyway. In fact, nobody mentioned Unacceptable Targets misuse until you did (and nobody else had a problem with this thread covering it, including at least one other mod).

Edit: Something similar happened with The Great Politics Messup's thread being expanded to include Dewey Defeats Truman despite only the former having a wick check, and since that was also because of redundancy and not misuse (both of them were merged with Failed Future Forecast), there shouldn't be a problem here.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 30th 2023 at 1:37:51 PM

Acceptable Targets has been potholed and ZCE'd to death, so that's a harder cause to argue, but a "fans find it's not OK to make fun of or negatively portray X" or "creator makes a decision to not make fun of or negatively portray X" concept has merit.

• Dude, Not Funny! being IUEO excludes audience reactions
• Values Dissonance could overlap: a creator's value system and audience's value system for a specific target differ

Starting up a check at Sandbox.Unacceptable Targets

Designated Monkey does something like that, with the creator thinking its okay to constantly humiliate and belittle a character but the audience doesn't, though it's significantly narrower in scope.

All right, I'll hold off on making a crowner until the check is done (unless it's already done by the time it's time to make one), and the set of options related to Unacceptable Targets will most likely be added to depending on how it goes (though I don't know if anything will end up being removed).

All right, done checking.

Of the 50 wicks reviewed

• 10 are some form of acknowledgement or a decision by a creator that something/someone should not be targeted. Of those, the majority seem to be in response to audience reaction or general audience feeling rather than a personally held belief
• 26 have the audience deciding someone/something being a target of mockery or negativity is in bad taste
• 14 are inline mentions, a bit too speculative for the above two sections, or better fit other tropes

Right now, I see Unacceptable Targets is distinct from but may overlap with other pages like Designated Monkey (when a Butt-Monkey inspires sympathy from the audience), Sacred Cow (a sub-"trope" about a specific item that fans consider immune to criticism, has a negative bent), Values Dissonance (what may be okay to mock in one place, group, or time period is not okay in another), Dude, Not Funny! (in-universe reaction from a character that a joke was uncalled for), etc.

I don't have such a firm attachment for Once Acceptable Targets, as Acceptable Targets + time-based Values Dissonance means examples can go on any of the three depending on how written although it might require a wick check for overlap, on the principle of providing evidence

I think it's easiest to deal with just Acceptable Targets and its subtropes here.