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Misused: Oedipus Complex

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Right now Oedipus Complex is heavily misused as basically a duplicate of Incest Subtext and Like Parent, Like Spouse.

The minimum useful definition is that it's a triangular thing between a child and both parents. Less than half of examples mention both parents.

The current page's actual definition is even stricter than that:

The son must supplant the patriarch or must extricate himself from his father's shadow and find his own place in the world. Much of the time this presents as the son's aim of removing his father to further himself in the eyes of his mother — not necessarily, but maybe, into her bed.

     Wick check 
Sandbox.Oedipus Complex Wick Check

  • Scenario involves both parents, and liking one but disliking the other (although not necessarily supplanting): 14/56 = 25%
  • Only one parent mentioned, Incest Subtext or Like Parent, Like Spouse: 25/56 = 45%
  • Shout-Out mentions of Oedipus: 1/56 = 2%
  • Zero-context: 16/56 = 28%

Note that (while not included among the 56 wicks) during the check I found that many (if not most) of the total wicks I saw were potholes, used in a jokey way, rather than a actual listings with any sort of explanation.

     Quote check 
I know this isn't a thing, but I feel it's illustrative of the flippant way the concept is used. In Quotes.Oedipus Complex:

  • 7/10 are Shout-Out, joke mentions of the concept
  • 1/10 is about the history of Freud
  • 2/10 are substantive (Hair the Color of Saffron and Psycho)

The quotes are similar to the pothole use. It's not substantive; it's a gag.

The options I see are:

  1. Change the meaning to a classic sort of triangle-between-a-child-and-both-parents type definition about closeness to one parent and antagonism toward the other.
  2. Stick with the page's current meaning of supplanting a parent, but rename it. That definition is simply not what most people associate with the phrase "Oedipus Complex", pairing them together just invites misuse.

Wick check:

As a note, many-if-not-most wicks (not the ones listed here) are potholes, rather than their own listing with any sort of explanation.

    Both parents mentioned (14) 
  1. Abel: Abel at times competes with his father for the attention of his mother.
  2. Conspiracy (2001): Kritzinger relates a story to Heydrich about an old friend of Kritzinger who hated his abusive father but loved his doting mother. To the friend's surprise his mother's death didn't affect him all that much, but his father's death made him cry uncontrollably. The tragedy was that the son's hatred for his father became more important to him than his mother's love, turning him into an empty shell after the man's death.
  3. Crooked House: Philip and Roger both harbour a deep resentment towards their father Aristide, and wish to supplant him as head of the family. For his part, Aristide took a great pleasure in keeping his sons solidly under his thumb. To add to the mix, Philip's son Eustace admits to having the hots for his step-grandmother.
  4. Funeral Parade of Roses: Yup. Eddie kills her mother, and has sex with her father. Although Eddie doesn't know who Gondo is, she clearly has some possessive feelings about her mom, as part of her whole messed-up persona.
  5. Human Nature: Puff grows up in the lab calling Nathan "father" and Gabrielle "mother." He plots to murder the former and bed the latter.
  6. Only God Forgives: Big time. There's some serious sexual tension between Crystal and Julian right from her first arrival, which is made overt when she starts caressing his bicep. In a later scene, she talks about the comparative penis sizes of her two sons. To top it off, we learn that Julian killed his father.
  7. The Master: Heavily implied with Freddie, who tells an Army psychologist that he had a dream involving his mother and father but refuses to divulge what happens in it, and tries to poison a fellow farm worker whom he claims looks like his father.
  8. The Squid and the Whale: Frank hates his father and is very attached to his mother, which disturbingly shades into sexual attraction. Inverted with Walt, who hates his mother and is very loyal to his father — until his father becomes his sexual rival for Lili.
  9. Thor: The Dark World: Loki genuinely loves his mother, and overthrows his father — whom he now loathes after being disowned and nearly executed — usurping the Asgardian throne in the process.
  10. We Need to Talk About Kevin: Kevin couples an unnerving obsession with his mother with absolute contempt for his father (who is so oblivious to his son's antipathy that it skirts Unknown Rival territory). Kevin has a peculiar habit of making sure his mother knows (and hears, and as far as possible sees) when he's getting to grips with himself — she feels like she's being sexually harassed by him. He's always had a special connection with Eva — she's somewhat pleased that her son shows his true personality to her, but never to his father. Alarmingly, Kevin actually succeeds in living out the desire at the centre of the Oedipus complex (albeit without the sexual part): removing his father so that he has his mother all to himself. The ending strongly implies that Kevin will move back in with Eva when he's released.
  11. Literature.Back To The Future: Seemingly played straight, hilariously (and weirdly) enough. Marty continually insults his father, calling him a nerd every chance he gets (B to the F goes as far as to use the phrase "nerd racist"), and hating him for his severe lack of a spine. While he does insult his mom as well, and expresses disbelief at Doc's creepy "She hasn't given birth to you yet, so it's O.K. to get down and dirty with her" comments, during the actual make-out scene with her, he seriously gets into it. The movie, on the other hand, falls on the side of inversion. Ahhh, the things that change when you script doctor a movie...
  12. Hayley Powell Food and Cocktails Mysteries: In book 1 (Death of a Kitchen Diva), while meeting with Bradley Applebaum, Hayley gets the definite uncomfortable feeling that he's got one of these with his late mother, even mentally describing the "oedipal undertones" in his voice when he talks about her (and that he seems to be transferring them to her), while he clearly doesn't trust his father and sees him as a rival for Karen's affections.
  13. Masters of Rome: Part of Servilia's Troubling Unchildlike Behavior involves her idolization of her father Caepio and contempt for her mother Livia.
    Servilia: Tata, if you won't kill her, leave her here! She's not good enough for you! She doesn't deserve you! Who is she, after all? Only a plebeian—not patrician like you and me! If you leave her here, I'll look after you, I promise!
  14. 1Q84: Tengo struggles with his father, and convinces himself that the man is not his biological father. Tengo overcomes his father by reading to him, while he is in a coma. (Taking on a role-reversal of sorts, but also allowing Tengo to self-reflect, almost at his father's expense). In the same place, the town of cats, Tengo spends the night with one of the nurses, Kumi Adachi. He does not sleep with her, but he smokes hash with her and has a vivid memory of her luxuriant pubic hair (a sign of maturity). Later on after Tengo's father passes away, it is hinted that Kumi may be the reincarnation of Tengo's mother, though Tengo himself never comes close to making this connection.

    Incest Subtext or Like Parent Like Spouse (25) 
  1. Enter the Void: It's heavily implied that Oscar has wanted to bed his mother since childhood and his father doesn't figure much into his trips to the past unless he's right next to or having sex with his mother.
  2. Fifty Shades of Grey: While defining that he's a sadist and not a dominant, Christian admits he gets sexually aroused from punishing women...who resemble his dead mother. Not surprised, considering that almost all his former submissive lovers resemble his mother vaguely in looks. Also his Freudian Excuse.
  3. Identity: Rivers's mother was a prostitute, and one of his personalities is as well - and most of the male characters find her very appealing.
  4. Jupiter Ascending: The driving force of the movie is the conflict between the Abrasax siblings and Jupiter, the genetic recurrence of their mother. While the Abrasax patriarch is never mentioned or seen, the two Abrasax brothers definitely have an unhealthy interest in their mother.
  5. Leave Her to Heaven: Mrs. Brent bluntly snaps that Ellen monopolized her father so much that "it's a wonder she didn't sleep with him!" She later falls for Richard because of his resemblance to him.
  6. Mona Lisa Smile: Giselle's father left his family, and it's implied that is the reason why she seeks sleeps mostly with older men.
  7. Mortdecai: Combined with Screw Yourself, Krampf wants the Goya because it reminds him of his mother who he believes he takes after in terms of looks. The subject of the painting is, incidentally, naked.
  8. Silent Night Deadly Night 5 The Toymaker: Pino appears to have a creepy obsession with Sarah. He addresses her as "Mommy", despite her not being his mother, and starts dry humping her in the climax while saying that he loves her and wants her.
  9. Sleepy Hollow (1999): Ichabod falls like a brick for the cute witch Katrina. His mother was "an innocent child of nature" "condemned, murdered to save her soul" by his father, a "Bible-black tyrant hiding behind a mask of righteousness." That won't happen again. Ichabod is a Man of Reason who rejects the intolerance of the Church and honors the gentle Katrina for her compassion.
  10. Sliver: Naomi and Carly bear a strong resemblance to Zeke's mother, offering a pretty creepy explanation for his attraction to them.
  11. Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines: After Kate destroys an Aerial HK drone with an assault rifle, a visibly attracted John stares at her in awed silence.
    Kate: What?
    John: Nothing. [Beat] You remind me of my mother.
  12. The Addams Family
    • In Values, Gomez pulls out a magazine from Fester's bed, opens to one of the centerfolds, and the two fondly say "Mom!".
    • The relationship between the amnesiac Fester and his "mother" in the first movie has shades of this. In the script, it was a lot less subtle.
  13. The Damned (1969): Martin's creepily close relationship with Sophie. And it's only the first of his (many, many) issues. (also ZCE)
  14. The Killing Kind: Thelma and Terry seem to share more than standard mother-son love.
  15. The Machinist: Very subtle example, but it's hinted that Trevor had a somewhat complicated relationship with his mother.
  16. The Naked Gun: Played for laughs as Frank's internal monologue describes Jane as an alluring goddess when he meets her, only to end with noting that she reminds him of his mother. Then when the captain sees Frank's face he tells him to wipe that look off his face as it looks like he just saw his mother.
  17. The Phantom of the Opera (2004): Gerard Butler was deliberately cast to resemble Ramin Karimloo, who played Christine's father, and later, played Raoul and the Phantom on West End as well.
  18. The Woman Chaser: Hudson's glowing description of his mother's fading charms, and the intentionally cringy scene, with purple narration, where he dances with her ("I chased. I persued. Made impossible leaps and came down as lightly as a wafted cigarette paper") all while his stepfather watches places him firmly in oedipal territory.
  19. Everland: Hook mentions several times how beautiful the Professor is despite the fact she's old enough to be his mother and even offers her the chance to join him in ruling the world. He does lampshade it in his inner monologue that he's got issues with his own mother that are causing this to manifest itself.
  20. Job: A Comedy of Justice: Patricia claims that there are a lot of "motherhumpers" that wind up in Hell, many of her johns requesting to take on the form of their mothers (or at least some of their characteristics to act out whatever incestuous urges they were unable to act upon in life.
  21. Lives of the Saints: Downplayed, but in many instances where Vittorio is alone with his mother, he describes her quite erotically...
  22. Nightmare Alley: Lilith states that Stan is suffering from this, and it's even implied that she may not be far from the truth. When he was a child he witnessed his mother having sex with another man who wasn't his father, an event he often flashes back to, and it's stated that his mother used to spray perfume on her pillow. When he first meets Lilith, he gets a whiff of her perfume and instantly feels shame but is also immediately sexually attracted to her. This is the first of many subtextual inferences that Lilith, a woman that Stan becomes sexually infatuated with, reminds him in some ways of his mother who abandoned him as a child.
  23. On Stranger Tides: Leo Friend. While attempting to rape Beth Hurwood (albeit falingly so) Leo Friend, with newfound powers and an apparent lack of mastery over them, accidentally and briefly turns Beth into his mother which while saying "mommy, oh mommy" repeatedly and in an increasingly pathetic tone. This, in turn, causes Beth to vomit, which is exactly the reaction his mother had when he made sexual advances on her.
  24. Phantom: Erik's relationship with his mother is pretty twisted; then he goes and falls madly, passionately and irrevocably in love with Christine - who happens, by pure coincidence, to resemble Madeline exactly. Huh.
  25. Red Dwarf: Rimmer's second wife in his Better Than Life fantasy is a de-aged version of his own mother. He's horribly Squicked out by it once he works it out.

    Shout Out mentions of Oedipus (1) 
  1. Analyze This
    Dr Sobel: Oedipus is a Greek story about a man who kills his father and marries his mother.
    Vitti: Fucking Greeks.

    Administrivia/Zero Context Example (16) 
Although note that any example that includes only 2 names defacto is doing it wrong, because the trope is a 3-chapter dynamic.

  1. Blue Velvet: Frank seems to have a very weird one.
  2. Confessions: Shuya toward his mother. He takes this so seriously that it’s not even funny.
  3. Eve's Bayou: Cisely toward her father Louis. Maybe.
  4. Hitchcock: Oedipus Complex: Noted by many male characters brought into the Psycho production.
  5. Sleepwalkers: Charles, greatly for his mother.
  6. The Magnificent Ambersons: Isabel and George ALL. DAY. LONG.
  7. Until the End of the World: It's easy to interpret Trevor McPhee/Sam Farber as having a bad case of this.
  8. Yeelen: The entire catalyst for the plot.
  9. Ariel (Plath): The poem "Daddy" is from the perspective of a woman with an Electra Complex.
  10. Dangerous Spirits: Konstantin's conflict with his son had a significant impact on him and greatly colors his interactions with Alexei.
  11. Fate of the Jedi: Several fans see shades of this in Ben, regarding his relationship with Vestara.
  12. Garden of Shadows: Malcolm to his mother Corinne.
  13. Infinite Jest: Orin's relationship with his mother is... not good.
  14. Lady Susan: Gender Flipped with Frederica's and Lady Susan's rivalry over Reginald de Courcy.
  15. Our Dumb Century: "Eisenhower Warns of Military-Industrial-Oedipal Complex"
  16. Rant: This does not even begin to describe Green Taylor Simm's problems.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 26th 2023 at 3:55:58 AM

Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#52: Jan 10th 2023 at 1:36:11 AM

The crowner is unanimously in favor of making a Useful Notes page for the preexisting definition of Oedipus complex and moving the trope this thread is for to a new name. Does it matter whether there will be overlap with Diagnosed by the Audience with the page that will have name Oedipus Complex after the Trope Transplant if the page in question won't even be in the Main/ namespace, and thus won't be able to have examples?

At most, we'd have Diagnosed by the Audience examples that have fans thinking a character has an Oedipus complex, since the trope currently using the Oedipus Complex name (but won't continue to if the consensus stays the same) will no longer have that name.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 10th 2023 at 3:38:52 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#53: Jan 10th 2023 at 12:29:10 PM

But what exactly are those specifics? What is the checklist a character needs to hit to fit this trope according to our definition?

The line I would really want to see there in making sure every example mentions the rivalry with the other parent. Two defining pillars: possessiveness of one parent, rivalry with the other.

The rivalry is what's missing from the current examples. It's the main crux of the misuse. Without it, Oedipus Complex is just a synonym for Incest Subtext. When the rivalry is present (and properly explained in the examples) then you can at least argue this is a legit trope unto itself.

Edited by Eievie on Jan 10th 2023 at 12:42:18 PM

Noaqiyeum Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they) from the gentle and welcoming dark (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they)
#54: Jan 10th 2023 at 3:45:41 PM

I don't actually want Oedipus Complex examples on Diagnosed by the Audience. The latter is at its best when the diagnosis comes from sympathy and personal experience, not just using "sociopath" and "narcissist" as pejoratives for their favourite Hate Sink, and I don't like the idea of Oedipus Complex being used as either of those things.

With the implications of Incest Subtext, it's somewhat analogous to The Sociopath, which is also an obsolete term distorted by pop psychology and used as a attribute of literary villainy. (But I'm even more uncomfortable with that page because it's so much closer to modern psychiatry.)

Without those implications... is there even a particular pattern of examples in "a child who's close to one parent has an antagonistic relationship with the other"? Isn't that more or less just a form of Parental Favouritism?

I think I'm currently voting for just disambiguating, but the differences between the page definition and common usage are confusing the other options for me.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable
BlackMage43 Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#55: Jan 10th 2023 at 4:29:54 PM

[up] Parental Favouritism is about a parent having a favorite child, not a child having a favorite parent. Also, from what I understand the concept that will be undergoing the transplant is the "child supplants the parent", not the father-child-mother thing.

Edited by BlackMage43 on Jan 10th 2023 at 4:32:11 AM

Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#56: Jan 10th 2023 at 4:48:39 PM

[up][up] I too have asked whether there are enough examples that fit the "possessive/incestuous attachment to one parent and rivalry with the other parent" definition well that it makes sense for it to have a page. I wouldn't go to far as to say that's definitely not a trope, but it does seem to — at minimum — be a pretty rare one.

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#57: Jan 11th 2023 at 2:31:45 AM

Regarding disambiguation, if we make UsefulNotes.Oedipus Complex, Main.Oedipus Complex can become a disambiguation between that, whatever the trope currently using the Oedipus Complex name is renamed to, and any other applicable pages. The disambiguation option is for only disambiguating and nothing else.

Disambiguating and moving to Useful Notes is basically what happened to Main.The Amazon after the original page was moved to UsefulNotes.The Amazon Rainforest.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 11th 2023 at 4:32:46 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#58: Jan 11th 2023 at 3:01:02 AM

Calling in favor of the following:

  • Do a Trope Transplant by moving the current definition to another name, and reuse the Oedipus Complex name for a page based on the actual psychological term.
  • If a Trope Transplant is done, move the page that will use the name Oedipus Complex (but not the page the current definition will be moved to) to Useful Notes (not mutually exclusive with disambiguating, which would result in the list of other pages being listed after the definition).
  • Expand the current definition to gender-neutral version of a child trying to supplunt a parent's role in the family (not mutually exclusive with moving the current definition to a new name, with or without a Trope Transplant for the current name).

Since the Oedipus Complex name will be moved to UsefulNotes.Oedipus Complex after all of this is done, Main.Oedipus Complex can become a disambiguation page.

Anyway, what are our name options for what to move the current definition to?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 11th 2023 at 5:01:56 AM

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badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#61: Jan 11th 2023 at 9:45:41 AM

With the phrase "the actual psychological term" being used, it's worth nothing that in actual Freudian psychology, the Oedipus Complex is supposed to be a stage in the normal developmental process — an early stage in that a kid will pass through and have settled by the age of 5 or 6. When it's proposed we have "a trope based on the actual psychological term", what's really being proposed is like an arrested development Oedipus Complex in teens or adults, which is actually a rather abnormal Oedipus Complex by Freudian standards.

But it also makes me wonder: The shift from the original concept as psychology, to the pop-culture understanding of it... that is the trope-making process, isn't it? Like with amnesia-as-a-trope as different than amnesia-as-a-real-condition?

GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#62: Jan 12th 2023 at 3:51:21 AM

Crowner hooked with some name options.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#63: Jan 14th 2023 at 10:28:07 PM

Here's a starting point of what bits from the old Oedipus Complex might make sense to bring to a new page (and add-libbed starting a Titanomachy write-up)

    Trope Transplant 
"A son exists to glorify the life of his father—as meaningless and worthless as that life might be. But if a boy is to become a man, he must glorify himself… and make a name even greater than his father's."

[name] is a conflict between parent and child where the child must supplant the parent or must extricate themself from the parent's shadow and find their own place in the world.

This archetype shares some themes with both the Messianic Archetype (rebirth and renewal) and The Trickster (out with the old, in with the new).

In its most extreme form it may lead to Patricide, but need not go that far. Also see Archnemesis Dad,

Examples

Film
  • Crooked House: Philip and Roger both harbour a deep resentment towards their father Aristide, and wish to supplant him as head of the family. For his part, Aristide took great pleasure in keeping his sons solidly under his thumb.
  • Thor: The Dark World: Loki overthrows his father — whom he now loathes after being disowned and nearly executed — usurping the Asgardian throne in the process.

Literature

  • Dollanganger Series: Cathy very much wants to supplant her mother Corrine—her power over men, and her poise. But the desire to be like her mother conflicts with her fear of being like her mother. The conflict is one of the most foundational things about Cathy, at the very core of her character.
  • A Song of Ice and Fire: Cersei greatly admires her father Tywin… and wants to supplant him anyways. She wants to be so much greater than him, to so overshadow him, that when people look back at it their time in history, he will only be remembered as being her father. She wants to be the power of House Lannister.

Live Action TV

  • Borgia: Cesare spends the first season in the shadow of his father and elder brother. After his brother dies, Cesare finally has a chance to come into his own. In a Large Ham moment, he vows to supplant his father.
    Cesare: A son exists to glorify the life of his father — as meaningless and worthless and that life might be. But if a boy is to become a man, he must glorify himself… and make a name even greater than his father's. A name… that will shout throughout history. I am Cesare Borgia!

Myths & Religion

  • Classical Mythology: The Titanomachy is a Greek succession myth. The primordial Mother Earth Gaia and Father Sky Uranus were the parents of the Titans, the first cohort of gods. The leader of the Titans was Cronus. To become the Top God, Cronus had seized power from his father Uranus, and castrated him for good measure. Then Cronus heard a prophesy that his son would in turn overthrow him. To prevent this, he ate his 5 children. His wife Rhea was not a fan of her kids being treated this way. When baby #6 was born, she gave him a fake baby to eat and spirited the real baby away. That baby, Zeus, grew up in secret and then returned to overthrow his father. This Divine Conflict was known as the Titanomachy. Zeus cut his father's stomach open and freed his siblings (who were fine in there) and became the new Top God.

Edited by Eievie on Jan 14th 2023 at 10:28:44 AM

GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#64: Jan 15th 2023 at 7:24:21 AM

Calling in favor of Child Supplants Parent, with Supplanting The Parent being a redirect. I'll go ahead and turn them into redirects so the pages can be moved when it's time to do that.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#65: Jan 15th 2023 at 7:32:25 AM

Double posting because I pinned a to-do list and archived the wick check.

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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#66: Jan 22nd 2023 at 12:07:28 AM

I tried my hand at writing drafts for UsefulNotes.Oedipus Complex and Main.Child Supplants Parent at Sandbox.Oedipus Complex and Sandbox.Child Supplants Parent using text salvaged from the original page, plus some new text. I used Wikipedia as a reference for the former because I'm not an expert on Freudian psychology, nor do I think I'm particularly good at writing Useful Notes pages or trope descriptions.

How do they look? Since this thread has kind of slowed down because the target pages for wick cleanup don't exist yet, I might move them in the near future if nobody objects, but I'm not going to set a timer yet; I'd like to see if I can get some feedback (which I might not get at 2 AM).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 22nd 2023 at 2:09:26 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#67: Jan 22nd 2023 at 1:15:29 PM

Here's my write-up attempt (can't edit the page itself, still caught up in the suspended board on charges of a couple ZCE)

    Oedipus Complex 

"I have found, in my own case too, [the phenomenon of] being in love with my mother and jealous of my father, and I now consider it a universal event in early childhood."

Sigmund Freud thought that in childhood, a young boy (3 to 6 years old) develops a feeling of desire for his mother and jealousy and envy toward his father as rival in a Love Triangle. The Oedipus Complex is successfully resolved when the boy begins to identify with his father as an indirect way to have the mother. The father becomes a role model rather than a rival.

The character need not actually have sex with the mother or kill his father. Freud himself described the events of the play as an Exaggerated Trope:

In [Oedipus the King] the child's wishful fantasy that underlies it is brought into the open and realized as it would be in a dream.

Freud infamously related nearly all psychological things to sex. Today, the idea that children are driven by unconscious sexual motives seems more like adults projecting an adult mindset onto children. As such, the pop-cultural subject of an Oedipus Complex is typically reimagined as a teen or adult.

Jealous Parent is a Sister Trope. It has the same basic premise of jealously in the parent-child triangle, but moves the role of the jealous figure from son to father, and the incest is removed. The father and child both desire the mother's affections, and may even compete for it, but the husband's desire is sexual while the son's is not. The young child may be possessively fixed on their mother — a love that may function in the same jealous way sexual love does — without actually being amorous.

If there's a sexual attachment between mother and son, but no rivalry with the father, it's just Incest Subtext.

The Trope Namer Oedipus himself is not an example. Oedipus never knew who his mother and father were until it was too late. He was not' someone who secretly wanted to kill his father and sleep with his mother — he desperately didn't want either, but ended up doing so anyway because You Can't Fight Fate.

Edited by Eievie on Jan 22nd 2023 at 1:18:18 AM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
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#68: Jan 22nd 2023 at 1:20:30 PM

[up]I swapped it in, but with "Trope Namer" replaced with "namesake" since this will be a Useful Notes page and not a trope. I think I'll go ahead and move the sandboxes into place in three days if nobody objects, because that writeup for UsefulNotes.Oedipus Complex is better than what I had.

Edit: I put back the text about the Electra complex because I didn't mean to remove it when putting that overhaul in the sandbox.

Edit: And cross-referenced Child Supplants Parent as a potential way the Oedipus complex can manifest in fiction. I can't think of any more changes at the moment since those two addendums to this post were all I can think of after originally posting this.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 22nd 2023 at 3:29:04 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#69: Jan 22nd 2023 at 2:10:26 PM

Edited by Eievie on Jan 22nd 2023 at 2:13:09 AM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#70: Jan 22nd 2023 at 2:16:46 PM

[up]The first two have been done. Could you be more specific about the third?

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#71: Jan 22nd 2023 at 2:20:02 PM

In the wick check, examples that would better be described as Like Parent, Like Spouse was one of the common misuses. Specifcally: his love interest is similar to his mother, implying Suspiciously Similar Substitute or something. So I think it should be mentioned, although when I try to write up the little section about it now I'm drawing a bit of a blank.

Edited by Eievie on Jan 22nd 2023 at 6:41:13 AM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#72: Jan 23rd 2023 at 3:34:16 AM

[up]I added a bit of text regarding it.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#73: Jan 26th 2023 at 1:55:00 PM

I'm a bit late, but Main.Child Supplants Parent and UsefulNotes.Oedipus Complex are now live, and Main.Oedipus Complex is now a disambiguation page between the two.

Here are the wicks, some of which belong to redirects.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#74: Jan 28th 2023 at 4:31:34 PM

Removed the sandbox notes from the two pages.

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#75: Jan 28th 2023 at 5:38:38 PM

Ah, whoops... probably neglected to remove those because there was a delay with getting them up. Thanks for taking care of those.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Trope Repair Shop: Oedipus Complex
12th Jan '23 3:50:01 AM

Crown Description:

Consensus was to do a Trope Transplant by moving the current definition to another name, and reuse the Oedipus Complex name for a page based on the actual psychological term; move the page that will use the name Oedipus Complex (but not the page the current definition will be moved to) to Useful Notes (not mutually exclusive with disambiguating, which would result in the list of other pages being listed after the definition); and expand the current definition to gender-neutral version of a child trying to supplunt a parent's role in the family. What should the trope's new name be?

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