To-do list:
- Move wicks for Main.Oedipus Complex that fit the trope Child Supplants Parent thusly. References to the Oedipus complex term can be changed to point to UsefulNotes.Oedipus Complex instead, but it may not be listed as a trope itself.
Original post
Right now Oedipus Complex is heavily misused as basically a duplicate of Incest Subtext and Like Parent, Like Spouse.The minimum useful definition is that it's a triangular thing between a child and both parents. Less than half of examples mention both parents.
The current page's actual definition is even stricter than that:
- Scenario involves both parents, and liking one but disliking the other (although not necessarily supplanting): 14/56 = 25%
- Only one parent mentioned, Incest Subtext or Like Parent, Like Spouse: 25/56 = 45%
- Shout-Out mentions of Oedipus: 1/56 = 2%
- Zero-context: 16/56 = 28%
Note that (while not included among the 56 wicks) during the check I found that many (if not most) of the total wicks I saw were potholes, used in a jokey way, rather than a actual listings with any sort of explanation.
- 7/10 are Shout-Out, joke mentions of the concept
- 1/10 is about the history of Freud
- 2/10 are substantive (Hair the Color of Saffron and Psycho)
The quotes are similar to the pothole use. It's not substantive; it's a gag.
The options I see are:
- Change the meaning to a classic sort of triangle-between-a-child-and-both-parents type definition about closeness to one parent and antagonism toward the other.
- Stick with the page's current meaning of supplanting a parent, but rename it. That definition is simply not what most people associate with the phrase "Oedipus Complex", pairing them together just invites misuse.
Wick check:
As a note, many-if-not-most wicks (not the ones listed here) are potholes, rather than their own listing with any sort of explanation.- Abel: Abel at times competes with his father for the attention of his mother.
- Conspiracy (2001): Kritzinger relates a story to Heydrich about an old friend of Kritzinger who hated his abusive father but loved his doting mother. To the friend's surprise his mother's death didn't affect him all that much, but his father's death made him cry uncontrollably. The tragedy was that the son's hatred for his father became more important to him than his mother's love, turning him into an empty shell after the man's death.
- Crooked House: Philip and Roger both harbour a deep resentment towards their father Aristide, and wish to supplant him as head of the family. For his part, Aristide took a great pleasure in keeping his sons solidly under his thumb. To add to the mix, Philip's son Eustace admits to having the hots for his step-grandmother.
- Funeral Parade of Roses: Yup. Eddie kills her mother, and has sex with her father. Although Eddie doesn't know who Gondo is, she clearly has some possessive feelings about her mom, as part of her whole messed-up persona.
- Human Nature: Puff grows up in the lab calling Nathan "father" and Gabrielle "mother." He plots to murder the former and bed the latter.
- Only God Forgives: Big time. There's some serious sexual tension between Crystal and Julian right from her first arrival, which is made overt when she starts caressing his bicep. In a later scene, she talks about the comparative penis sizes of her two sons. To top it off, we learn that Julian killed his father.
- The Master: Heavily implied with Freddie, who tells an Army psychologist that he had a dream involving his mother and father but refuses to divulge what happens in it, and tries to poison a fellow farm worker whom he claims looks like his father.
- The Squid and the Whale: Frank hates his father and is very attached to his mother, which disturbingly shades into sexual attraction. Inverted with Walt, who hates his mother and is very loyal to his father — until his father becomes his sexual rival for Lili.
- Thor: The Dark World: Loki genuinely loves his mother, and overthrows his father — whom he now loathes after being disowned and nearly executed — usurping the Asgardian throne in the process.
- We Need to Talk About Kevin: Kevin couples an unnerving obsession with his mother with absolute contempt for his father (who is so oblivious to his son's antipathy that it skirts Unknown Rival territory). Kevin has a peculiar habit of making sure his mother knows (and hears, and as far as possible sees) when he's getting to grips with himself — she feels like she's being sexually harassed by him. He's always had a special connection with Eva — she's somewhat pleased that her son shows his true personality to her, but never to his father. Alarmingly, Kevin actually succeeds in living out the desire at the centre of the Oedipus complex (albeit without the sexual part): removing his father so that he has his mother all to himself. The ending strongly implies that Kevin will move back in with Eva when he's released.
- Literature.Back To The Future: Seemingly played straight, hilariously (and weirdly) enough. Marty continually insults his father, calling him a nerd every chance he gets (B to the F goes as far as to use the phrase "nerd racist"), and hating him for his severe lack of a spine. While he does insult his mom as well, and expresses disbelief at Doc's creepy "She hasn't given birth to you yet, so it's O.K. to get down and dirty with her" comments, during the actual make-out scene with her, he seriously gets into it. The movie, on the other hand, falls on the side of inversion. Ahhh, the things that change when you script doctor a movie...
- Hayley Powell Food and Cocktails Mysteries: In book 1 (Death of a Kitchen Diva), while meeting with Bradley Applebaum, Hayley gets the definite uncomfortable feeling that he's got one of these with his late mother, even mentally describing the "oedipal undertones" in his voice when he talks about her (and that he seems to be transferring them to her), while he clearly doesn't trust his father and sees him as a rival for Karen's affections.
- Masters of Rome: Part of Servilia's Troubling Unchildlike Behavior involves her idolization of her father Caepio and contempt for her mother Livia.
Servilia: Tata, if you won't kill her, leave her here! She's not good enough for you! She doesn't deserve you! Who is she, after all? Only a plebeian—not patrician like you and me! If you leave her here, I'll look after you, I promise!
- 1Q84: Tengo struggles with his father, and convinces himself that the man is not his biological father. Tengo overcomes his father by reading to him, while he is in a coma. (Taking on a role-reversal of sorts, but also allowing Tengo to self-reflect, almost at his father's expense). In the same place, the town of cats, Tengo spends the night with one of the nurses, Kumi Adachi. He does not sleep with her, but he smokes hash with her and has a vivid memory of her luxuriant pubic hair (a sign of maturity). Later on after Tengo's father passes away, it is hinted that Kumi may be the reincarnation of Tengo's mother, though Tengo himself never comes close to making this connection.
- Enter the Void: It's heavily implied that Oscar has wanted to bed his mother since childhood and his father doesn't figure much into his trips to the past unless he's right next to or having sex with his mother.
- Fifty Shades of Grey: While defining that he's a sadist and not a dominant, Christian admits he gets sexually aroused from punishing women...who resemble his dead mother. Not surprised, considering that almost all his former submissive lovers resemble his mother vaguely in looks. Also his Freudian Excuse.
- Identity: Rivers's mother was a prostitute, and one of his personalities is as well - and most of the male characters find her very appealing.
- Jupiter Ascending: The driving force of the movie is the conflict between the Abrasax siblings and Jupiter, the genetic recurrence of their mother. While the Abrasax patriarch is never mentioned or seen, the two Abrasax brothers definitely have an unhealthy interest in their mother.
- Leave Her to Heaven: Mrs. Brent bluntly snaps that Ellen monopolized her father so much that "it's a wonder she didn't sleep with him!" She later falls for Richard because of his resemblance to him.
- Mona Lisa Smile: Giselle's father left his family, and it's implied that is the reason why she seeks sleeps mostly with older men.
- Mortdecai: Combined with Screw Yourself, Krampf wants the Goya because it reminds him of his mother who he believes he takes after in terms of looks. The subject of the painting is, incidentally, naked.
- Silent Night Deadly Night 5 The Toymaker: Pino appears to have a creepy obsession with Sarah. He addresses her as "Mommy", despite her not being his mother, and starts dry humping her in the climax while saying that he loves her and wants her.
- Sleepy Hollow (1999): Ichabod falls like a brick for the cute witch Katrina. His mother was "an innocent child of nature" "condemned, murdered to save her soul" by his father, a "Bible-black tyrant hiding behind a mask of righteousness." That won't happen again. Ichabod is a Man of Reason who rejects the intolerance of the Church and honors the gentle Katrina for her compassion.
- Sliver: Naomi and Carly bear a strong resemblance to Zeke's mother, offering a pretty creepy explanation for his attraction to them.
- Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines: After Kate destroys an Aerial HK drone with an assault rifle, a visibly attracted John stares at her in awed silence.
Kate: What?
John: Nothing. [Beat] You remind me of my mother. - The Addams Family
- In Values, Gomez pulls out a magazine from Fester's bed, opens to one of the centerfolds, and the two fondly say "Mom!".
- The relationship between the amnesiac Fester and his "mother" in the first movie has shades of this. In the script, it was a lot less subtle.
- The Damned (1969): Martin's creepily close relationship with Sophie. And it's only the first of his (many, many) issues. (also ZCE)
- The Killing Kind: Thelma and Terry seem to share more than standard mother-son love.
- The Machinist: Very subtle example, but it's hinted that Trevor had a somewhat complicated relationship with his mother.
- The Naked Gun: Played for laughs as Frank's internal monologue describes Jane as an alluring goddess when he meets her, only to end with noting that she reminds him of his mother. Then when the captain sees Frank's face he tells him to wipe that look off his face as it looks like he just saw his mother.
- The Phantom of the Opera (2004): Gerard Butler was deliberately cast to resemble Ramin Karimloo, who played Christine's father, and later, played Raoul and the Phantom on West End as well.
- The Woman Chaser: Hudson's glowing description of his mother's fading charms, and the intentionally cringy scene, with purple narration, where he dances with her ("I chased. I persued. Made impossible leaps and came down as lightly as a wafted cigarette paper") all while his stepfather watches places him firmly in oedipal territory.
- Everland: Hook mentions several times how beautiful the Professor is despite the fact she's old enough to be his mother and even offers her the chance to join him in ruling the world. He does lampshade it in his inner monologue that he's got issues with his own mother that are causing this to manifest itself.
- Job: A Comedy of Justice: Patricia claims that there are a lot of "motherhumpers" that wind up in Hell, many of her johns requesting to take on the form of their mothers (or at least some of their characteristics to act out whatever incestuous urges they were unable to act upon in life.
- Lives of the Saints: Downplayed, but in many instances where Vittorio is alone with his mother, he describes her quite erotically...
- Nightmare Alley: Lilith states that Stan is suffering from this, and it's even implied that she may not be far from the truth. When he was a child he witnessed his mother having sex with another man who wasn't his father, an event he often flashes back to, and it's stated that his mother used to spray perfume on her pillow. When he first meets Lilith, he gets a whiff of her perfume and instantly feels shame but is also immediately sexually attracted to her. This is the first of many subtextual inferences that Lilith, a woman that Stan becomes sexually infatuated with, reminds him in some ways of his mother who abandoned him as a child.
- On Stranger Tides: Leo Friend. While attempting to rape Beth Hurwood (albeit falingly so) Leo Friend, with newfound powers and an apparent lack of mastery over them, accidentally and briefly turns Beth into his mother which while saying "mommy, oh mommy" repeatedly and in an increasingly pathetic tone. This, in turn, causes Beth to vomit, which is exactly the reaction his mother had when he made sexual advances on her.
- Phantom: Erik's relationship with his mother is pretty twisted; then he goes and falls madly, passionately and irrevocably in love with Christine - who happens, by pure coincidence, to resemble Madeline exactly. Huh.
- Red Dwarf: Rimmer's second wife in his Better Than Life fantasy is a de-aged version of his own mother. He's horribly Squicked out by it once he works it out.
- Analyze This
Dr Sobel: Oedipus is a Greek story about a man who kills his father and marries his mother.Vitti: Fucking Greeks.
- Blue Velvet: Frank seems to have a very weird one.
- Confessions: Shuya toward his mother. He takes this so seriously that it’s not even funny.
- Eve's Bayou: Cisely toward her father Louis. Maybe.
- Hitchcock: Oedipus Complex: Noted by many male characters brought into the Psycho production.
- Sleepwalkers: Charles, greatly for his mother.
- The Magnificent Ambersons: Isabel and George ALL. DAY. LONG.
- Until the End of the World: It's easy to interpret Trevor McPhee/Sam Farber as having a bad case of this.
- Yeelen: The entire catalyst for the plot.
- Ariel (Plath): The poem "Daddy" is from the perspective of a woman with an Electra Complex.
- Dangerous Spirits: Konstantin's conflict with his son had a significant impact on him and greatly colors his interactions with Alexei.
- Fate of the Jedi: Several fans see shades of this in Ben, regarding his relationship with Vestara.
- Garden of Shadows: Malcolm to his mother Corinne.
- Infinite Jest: Orin's relationship with his mother is... not good.
- Lady Susan: Gender Flipped with Frederica's and Lady Susan's rivalry over Reginald de Courcy.
- Our Dumb Century: "Eisenhower Warns of Military-Industrial-Oedipal Complex"
- Rant: This does not even begin to describe Green Taylor Simm's problems.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 26th 2023 at 3:55:58 AM
that's actually not true of Oedipus Complex. The first sentence on the page says "The Oedipal archetype deals with any conflict between father and son, particularly where the son must supplant the patriarch or must extricate himself from his father's shadow and find his own place in the world." This doesn't mention the mother at all.
The trope is saying that the son seeks to replace the father as the head of the family/household. That often includes an incest subtext since naturally, part of the father's role in a "traditional" household is to be the romantic/sexual partner of the mother, but that's not the core part of the trope, so not mentioning the mother is fine.
That said, the fact that many examples don't include a desire to compete with or replace the father is an issue. I do agree that a rename would help though, since most people associate the Oedipus story with Surprise Incest first and the supplanting of the father second.
Edited by amathieu13 on Jan 6th 2023 at 4:24:35 AM
Agreed. Even ignoring the possible mistaken definition by the OP, a rename is probably a good idea.
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper WallStole the words from my mouth.
Also, I wouldn't oppose to renaming the trope or expanding it, but I'd rather keep the name because it's so well-known.
And not to be mean or start anything, but I feel like you should've discussed/asked about the definition of the trope before deciding to take it to TRS first, just to make sure you got it right.
This is a preexisting term, so I'm against renaming it. I suppose one option would be having a definition-only page for the term and a different page for the trope, but not ditching the name entirely.
...That said, I'm not sure what needs to be done here. The description says it doesn't always involve incest. I suppose expanding while keeping the name the same would work if necessary (if some of the current examples don't already fit), but not renaming.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 6th 2023 at 7:12:10 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Oedipus Complex is an existing term by Sigmund Freud, but I'm not sure it fits as a trope. The description may say incest is optional, but the whole idea behind the term Oedipus Complex is that every child has an unconscious sexual infatuation with one of their parents and thus has a rivalry with the other. It's one of Freud's most controversial views.
I feel like if this is kept in some way it should be moved to YMMV, since a lot of the examples (the ones that aren't just misuse) feel like psychoanalyzing any parental relationship in an Oedipus Complex light, which makes me think of Diagnosed by the Audience.
"Oedipus complex" is a son-mother-father Love Triangle. Oedipus Complex describes "any conflict between father and son".
I'd personally prefer to redefine Oedipus Complex to how Freud describes it and move the current definition of a son trying to become the alpha in the house to another name.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupA Trope Transplant sounds fine, now that you mention it.
Do any examples in the wick check have any subjective wording?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 6th 2023 at 10:07:07 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.You know, a Trope Transplant might actually work here. for now to that
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper WallNot per se, but a lot of the ones that mention both parents just describe "character has an antagonistic relationship with one parent but a good one with the other". It feels like a stretch to say there's an Oedipus Complex in them.
Edited by BlackMage43 on Jan 6th 2023 at 8:27:36 AM
If we do a Trope Transplant, then those examples probably wouldn't stay under the name Oedipus Complex.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 6th 2023 at 11:02:51 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.It has occurred to me that there's a line "On the other side is the Electra Complex, where the conflict is between mother and daughter"
But Electra Complex isn't a Gender-Inverted Trope, it's a redirect (with 49 wicks) back to Oedipus Complex. So I think making the trope gender-neutral is reasonable.
Edited by Amonimus on Jan 6th 2023 at 8:16:45 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupI think it should be gender-neutral.
Edit: Fixed that case of Linking to an Article Within the Article.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 6th 2023 at 12:36:35 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.A trope transplant + redefinition.
I think the trope transplant is a good idea. The new trope under Oedipus Complex would be a parent specific subtrope of Incest Subtext?
The 3 definitions we have going around are:
- Parent-child Incest Subtext
- A Love Triangle between a child and both parents (or possibly something that harkens to that without outright being that?)
- Child seeking to supplant their parent
I think we're all basically agreed the 3rd one is out. It's an interesting concept, and one we might do well to have a page about, but it's so out-of-alignment with what the term "Oedipus Complex" brings to mind for most people that calling it that is just asking for confusion.
The 1st one is most consistent with the term's currant usage. But if it's just "Incest Subtext but more specific", I question how useful that is. Like, is there any additional meaning gained by calling such instances Oedipus Complex rather than Incest Subtext?
So I'm thinking that the 2nd definition looks like the most useful one. But that also seems like the least common story element of the three (especially if you don't water down the definition). We can probably scrounge up a couple examples of parent-child love triangles, but it's pretty rare. I wonder if there are enough examples of it that it really makes sense to give it a page.
Edited by Eievie on Jan 6th 2023 at 6:12:59 AM
If the trope is renamed, would it be worth making Oedipus Complex (and Electra Complex) a Useful Note?
TV Tropes ruined Faust's lifeWould turning it into a redirect for Incest Subtext be on the table?
I suppose either redirecting Oedipus Complex and its Electra Complex redirect to Incest Subtext could be an option if we rename the trope, or transplanting the Oedipus Complex and Electra Complex names to a Useful Notes page (the latter continuing to redirect to the former in that case) while also renaming the trope those names are currently attached to could be an option.
Since the trope name is misusing a preexisting term due to it being broader than what the term actually means, I suppose that would actually be a point in favor of moving the current definition to a new name, since there have been past cases of trope names being taken to TRS for misusing preexisting terms (like Zero Sum Game and Armchair Psychology, which were cut).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 6th 2023 at 8:38:15 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.In terms of a new name for the "Son Supplants the Father" concept, the first thing that occurs to me is something referencing Zeus and the Titans. But maybe that's just because the old name is making me think of Greek things. Since unclear names is how we got here, maybe it should just be called Child Seeks To Supplant Parent to avoid that again.
About is possibly being a Useful Note... what's the useful note we would put there? Is Sigmund Freud's concept useful, given that it's largely disregarded these days? Is the pop culture usage of it useful, if it's just a synonym for Incest Subtext? I mean, maybe one of you can think of something useful to say about it, I'm not ruling that out. But when I think about what we could say about that, most of what occurs to me is not particularly useful.
Edited by Eievie on Jan 7th 2023 at 10:05:33 AM
We do have All Psychology Is Freudian, so misuse of terms Freud coined would fit there.
TV Tropes ruined Faust's lifeHow about a disambiguation page? Because it's used so many different ways?
- For the psychoanalytic theory, see All Psychology Is Freudian
- For a sexual relationship between mother and son, see Parental Incest
- For the implication of such relationship, see Incest Subtext
- For a love interest who resembles one's mother, see Like Parent, Like Spouse
- For a love triangle between a son, mother, and father, see Love Triangle or Jealous Parent
- For a son killing his father, see Patricide
- For mere animosity between father and son, see Calling the Old Man Out
This current list may have more than we actually want, even if the list is cut down, it will still almost certainly relate to several tropes.
Edited by Eievie on Jan 7th 2023 at 11:24:32 AM
It's been three days. What our our options?
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.- Trope Transplant the current definition to another name, and make new definition for Oedipus Complex according to psychology.
- If transplanted, make new Oedipus Complex Defenition-Only.
- Expand the current definition to gender-neutral version of a child trying to supplunt a parent's role in the family.
- Disambiguate according to this post.
- Combined def-only+disambig page with the transplanted page as one of the disambig options.
Crown Description:
Consensus was to do a Trope Transplant by moving the current definition to another name, and reuse the Oedipus Complex name for a page based on the actual psychological term; move the page that will use the name Oedipus Complex (but not the page the current definition will be moved to) to Useful Notes (not mutually exclusive with disambiguating, which would result in the list of other pages being listed after the definition); and expand the current definition to gender-neutral version of a child trying to supplunt a parent's role in the family. What should the trope's new name be?
To-do list:
Original post
Right now Oedipus Complex is heavily misused as basically a duplicate of Incest Subtext and Like Parent, Like Spouse.The minimum useful definition is that it's a triangular thing between a child and both parents. Less than half of examples mention both parents.
The current page's actual definition is even stricter than that:
Note that (while not included among the 56 wicks) during the check I found that many (if not most) of the total wicks I saw were potholes, used in a jokey way, rather than a actual listings with any sort of explanation.
The quotes are similar to the pothole use. It's not substantive; it's a gag.
The options I see are:
Wick check:
As a note, many-if-not-most wicks (not the ones listed here) are potholes, rather than their own listing with any sort of explanation.John: Nothing. [Beat] You remind me of my mother.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 26th 2023 at 3:55:58 AM