CM/MB Policy and Thread Culture

I agree that we could do something to make it more friendly towards newcomers and Im FIRMLY against just deleting everything.

I do encourage that as well, as long as relevant details can be read from their post I'm quite happy and encourage taking their submission, concern or suggested corrections.

I do agree that the whole cleanup thread adds examples is weird and I have noticed that most other cleanup threads don't do that because they are more focused on the cleanup part. On the other hand I don't think there is any reason to not add new entries but maybe not so many at a time is a good idea.

Also I also agree that we should make it easier for new commers to join as I think a lot of us have been hostile towards new commers unintentionally.

Edited by Bullman on Oct 7th 2022 at 4:12:58 AM

Speaking as someone who only posted on the CM thread like, once or twice, there's this vibe that the regulars there treat it as a badge of honor to make EPs and get them accepted, and for works they like to have CMs entries. I've seen several entries 'in the wild' of characters who have their traits and deeds exaggerated in heniousness/chestmaster-ness in order to fit the trope, and the structure of the thread makes it an uphill battle to get those entries removed if you're not already in the club.

The threads themselves also cultivate an exclusive atmosphere where the norms aren't actually explained to newcomers and you're expected to either know already or read through hundreds of backpages to learn. There's no explaination of how the sandboxes work (they're apparently swapped in weekly?), that the regulars call dibs on certain works months in advance and can deny you a chance to make an EP, or even when exactly votes on characters are called.

Hell, I can admit, from an outsider's perspective, I'd probably be a bit intimidated as well.

Fighteer: But we've probably purged most of the bad examples already.

Yeah, swaps are done weekly (Monday or so for CM and I believe Saturday? for MB).

Edited by ACW on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:12:38 AM

I have a genuine question: why should new examples not be added? IF we read or watch things, find examples and want to propose them, why is that an issue? Or growing the trope?

the issue seems to be one of culture, and that's eminently fixable. But I respectfully disagree with the notion that new examples shouldn't be proposed.

Some (admittedly stupid) thoughts: I understand some here are worried about misuse flooding back in if we unlock CM and MB.

But don’t we have other tropes with similar misuse patterns that are unlocked? The amount of misuse that, for example, Nightmare Fuel, the Hindsight tropes, Surprisingly Realistic Outcome, and even Overshadowed by Controversy get is staggeringly high. But those tropes don’t need an exhaustive thread that curates examples, they just have a normal thread that cleans and removes examples as needed.

This is going to sound dumb, but is there a reason CM and MB can’t be similar?

As a non thread-participant I'll leave a piece of my mind and step back to lurking.

These two, as currently set up, do not sound like YMMV items, and they don't have the same rules as every other YMMV. These don't sound like general subjective opinions about the work, but what a select few people only on Tv Tropes like, based on work's context that isn't even subjective. I do not believe they are notable or tropeworthy. The purpose of these tropes is to find "the most and the best" characters in fiction, which is effectively the same as Trope Pantheons (the thread of which is also handled similarly, but strangely nobody has complained about that thread yet). This results in some sort of game isolated from the rest of the site, with a lot of users exclusively participating there for funz, the complaining when the wiki side reminds it exists. If it keeps growing unhealthy behavior for both parts of the site, I'd be more comfortable to cut ties between the two.

So here are my two cents, IMHO we can either:

• Rehash the thread rules to reduce the amount of valid examples and increase participence from unfamiliar users, keep candidates in a single sandbox and remove them once voted on.
• Let Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard "return to the roots" in whatever sense they were when they've started out and remake them into proper Audience Reactions. "The audience finds this character incredibly scary/brilliant". No moderation, let them be handled like normal YMMV. The cleanup is only to check the misuse.
• Remove the two from YMMV and place the tropes into Just for Fun, so it wouldn't intersect with normal wiki. While it doesn't solve the issue with isolation, it would reduce the hostility if it's literally treated like a game.
• Just pull the plug on both.

Edited by Amonimus on Oct 7th 2022 at 12:25:32 PM

Creating high barriers of entry is the problem. Saying that determining trope criteria is on par with practicing medicine is exactly the kind of elitist froofrah that deters new people from joining.

The CM thread has been active over ten years. The margin of error clearly is much smaller than it was back then.

I mean, the very fact that we’ve had several long discussions and disagreements over whether or not someone counts for something is evidence that it’s YMMV in my opinion

I had a brief stunt in the CM thread where I worked with a regular on a CM EP a year or so ago. It was ultimately not accepted but it was an OK experience.

A few weeks ago, I asked a question about something but I was mostly brushed off. I suppose this means regulars are more focused on EPs then anything else, not sure if that's a good thing or not. And that is probably all I can say as someone who hasn't caught up on the CM/MB drama.

But Nightmare Fuel and those other tropes are much lower quality. Plus it's relatively easy to re-add the bad examples that were deleted and people may not be able to track that as efficiently. And if it's clear that the tropes themselves are performing this well, I don't think we should need to encourage more people to join. Maybe make the barrier of entry very slightly lower and clarify a few things, and do the other reforms I agreed upon, but not more than that.

Edited by Piterpicher on Oct 7th 2022 at 11:16:28 AM

Now making the TROPES Just for Fun...THAT'S an interesting suggestion. I wouldn't be opposed to that (except for the fact that would mean the entries wouldn't appear on the work pages or YMMV pages, which would be...odd).

And related to what STAR said: There are indeed debates. Hell, there are characters who got approved who I disagree with, and probably vice versa.

Edited by ACW on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:15:54 AM

I'm not particularly active in the CM/MB threads, but I never really felt like there was much of a barrier of entry to making suggestions. On the four occasions where I've hopped over to the threads to propose candidates, things went rather smooth for the most part.

The one case where something went less than stellarly was when I recommended a certain character, only to be informed afterwards that the work they were from had been reserved by someone else (the person who made the reservation did not mark this in the sandbox dedicated to reserving upcoming works). I had another candidate in mind from that work, but because of that reservation, I was not allowed to propose that character and instead had to wait for like a week or two for them to beat the game and make the post.

But the whole practice of "reserving" a work feels strange to me. Actually, I've noticed that some tropers on these threads seem to seek out and consume works specifically to verify whether or not there are CMs/MBs in them, which is rather odd behavior in my opinion, but you do you.

Edit: Nevermind.

Edited by emperors on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:17:11 AM

@Karxrida: Could you please lower the vulgarity while we’re trying to have a civil discussion about this? It’s quite disrespectful

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:17:56 AM

As someone who joined the CM thread 2 years ago, I think I was welcomed just fine on my first proposal (or rather removal proposal) even though it was a big, unreadable wall of text that was unformatted because I didn't know how to format properly yet and I even received some advice on how to fix it.

I don't think there is such a big issue about welcoming newcomers to the threads but that's just from what I have personally observed.

Edited by WatTambor on Oct 7th 2022 at 12:17:45 PM

You wonk hard enough and long enough and you can make anything fit random criteria.

Then you have the opposite of a cleanup.

"Actually, I've noticed that some tropers on these threads seem to seek out and consume works specifically to verify whether or not there are M Bs in them, which is rather odd behavior in my opinion, but you do you."

I think this may be true, but my personal opinion about that? So what? Remember, first and foremost, CM MB, tvtropes...it's all a hobby and meant to be for fun. At least IMO.

Oh, believe me, we have fairly strict criteria. Even thread regulars can disagree at times.

Edited by ACW on Oct 7th 2022 at 5:18:34 AM

I'm a semi-regular on both threads but have ample edits on main pages.

For sandboxes, since Just for Fun is a no go, if people are really sentimental about keeping those, then moving them to troper's personal pages might be the best option.

As for reservations on new media, that's not a problem exclusive to CM and MB. Whenever there's a new release, people will race each other to be the one to get the info up first. The only difference with cleanup threads is, due to the forum nature it won't result in edit clashes. Like with any other page, I guess tropers just have to work out an agreement amount themselves?

I think ban evasion hollering has been covered pretty extensively already. My only suggestion is add a rule about hollering on hunches, or maybe a cap on the number of hollers a troper can give out/receive to prevent holler spamming?

NVM

Edited by Piterpicher on Oct 7th 2022 at 11:18:34 AM

Yes it culture problem one we definetely should fix, thought I do feel we have gotten a lot better. I joined week ago and despite my very slopy begining was warmly welcomed, even asured that I am welcome. I also don’t see problem with growing the trope or tropers finding example they don’t feel like doing now and putnih it on backburner.

@STAR While there was definitely a more respectful way to say that, there can be truth to the fact that as much as we keep things very level-headed, we also get pretty carried away too.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Oct 7th 2022 at 2:19:10 AM