Translation Policy

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The policy specifically says don't do that. The most recent official English title is Luna and Sophie.

Edited by bwburke94 on Nov 21st 2023 at 6:31:12 AM

Revisiting the previous page, Series.Y Gwyll has now been moved to Series.Hinterland, as discussed.

Ditto for the subpages.

We've had to consider exceptions for translations that significantly add material to the work (Macekre stuff etc.).

I can see an argument for treating a long-running series where only a fraction was translated in much the same way, if (as in this case) the translation title misrepresents the larger work.

But I think that's a policy question we'd need to get consensus on.

So, back with a new one...

The Richard Wagner page lists his operas under their German titles, although most links go to English page names.

Opera likes its foreign titles, and the works are generally performed in German, but all of the titles have been translated to English for productions or recordings at some point.

Going through them in order -

• Die Feen (no page yet) is The Fairies
• Das Liebesverbot (no page yet) isThe Ban on Love
• Rienzi, der Letzte der Tribunen is Rienzi, the Last of the Tribunes, but usually just shortened to Rienzi In both languages.
• Der fliegende Holländer is The Flying Dutchman
• Tannhäuser und der Sängerkrieg auf Wartburg is another one simplified by the Character Title, as it's widely known as Tannhäuser in both languages. But if we do list it in full it should be Tannhäuser and the Minnesingers' Contest at the Wartburg.
• Tristan und Isolde is often untranslated, but it is out there as Tristan and Isolde, and has been for decades.
• Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg (no page yet) is The Master-Singers of Nüremberg (although some versions skip the hyphen).
• Der Ring des Nibelungen is The Ring of the Nibelung
  • Das Rheingold is The Rhine Gold
  • Die Walküre is The Valkyrie
  • Götterdämmerung is Twilight of the Gods

(The other finished works are all character titles with no difference in translation)

So... do we standardise on English for all of the above, mentioning the German titles but not using them for wikilinks or page names?

Yeah, these could be in pairs of English Title (German Title) if they are localized.

Another opera one - Un ballo in maschera.

This time the page itself uses the Italian name, not the English translation ("A Masked Ball").

I've set up Theatre.A Masked Ball as a redirect, and I'd propose we swap the page and redirect over so that we're using the English version (with the Italian original title prominently mentioned in page intro).

Sound ok?

Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 10:51:11 AM

That might work.

Edited by gjjones on Jan 22nd 2024 at 6:36:58 AM

I dunno, I think opera is a gray area since they're usually performed in the language of origin rather than being translated.

Judging from the title of the Wikipedia page being https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Un_ballo_in_maschera, it looks like it's mainly known by its Italian title.

I'm not really familiar with opera. Is it being performed in English under the foreign title?

Probably not, that's what I'm saying. It's not impossible, just unlikely: Translating songs is even more difficult than regular translation since you have to match the beat and rhythm, not just get the spirit of the words used. So they're almost always performed in the source language, which the singers may or may not actually speak (you can still memorize it phonetically).

Edited by StarSword on Jan 22nd 2024 at 9:44:00 AM

As with most operas, the untranslated title is most common but it is out there with the English version.

(As shown here, here and here, among other places)

Earlier on this thread the view has been that we use a translated title if it exists, and that seems to apply regardless of whether the work itself is translated. I don't have a strong opinion on this, but if we want to handle opera etc. differently, we should probably shape that into part of the policy.

If a work is officially released for anglophone audiences under the untranslated title and it is more commonly known under said title, I think that's a case for a work page to use the untranslated title.

Edited by Twiddler on Jan 23rd 2024 at 12:26:48 PM

If we take that view, I think we just need to find a way to avoid opening the door to 'notability' discussions.

(Not an objection, just a thought)

I'd be strongly in favour of routinely using whichever title we don't use for the work page (English or untranslated original) as a redirect.

The issue I'm having with using the English title in this case is that the policy refers to preferring official English translations. There is no official translation here: it's a public domain work that can be translated any which way you please as long as you preserve the meaning (which, granted, in this case there are few possibilities).

Looking at a YouTube search (English title, Italian title, the opera is known by both the original Italian title and the literal English translation, but much more commonly by the Italian title. Though interestingly there's a commentary video about the play that only appears in the top results if you use the English version.

So, if we want to formalise that (which probably needs a Crowner), how's this?

Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 24th 2024 at 11:24:06 AM

Cool by me.

And FWIW, whenever I make a page for a work in a foreign language, I always add a redirect at the original-language title to aid searches anyway.

Sure, leave wiggle room in the policy for certain works known better under their non-English titles.

I'm holding off my vote on the Battle of the Planets clause until I get confirmation it won't be used to trope Glitter Force separately, given my history with PreCure and the translation policy.

Edited by bwburke94 on Jan 25th 2024 at 6:06:02 AM

Agreed with everything, but two moments:

• "Where a translation rewrites and very significantly changes a work"

What does it imply for "Americanized" works like Ace Attorney, infamous 4Kids dubs and Smile PreCure!? If a translation can be treated as own work, ideally it should get own work page then, but there are cases of translation deviation that are probably worth close attention.

• "Where appropriate, we note that it was not originally in English."

I have never seen langauge being indicated in quotes, they just go with fan translation. Maybe it implies when an English work has non-english dialogue to make a note that it's not spoken in work's language?

Localized Ace Attorney is still "the same work", as are the 4Kids dubs (aside from maybe One Piece, but that's a special case which shouldn't be taken as the norm for 4Kids).

I feel like the clause is only meant to be used for stuff like Robotech and Power Rangers, which are quite clearly adapted to a different form than the original work(s). That's why it says "very significantly".

In terms of quotes:

For Drag Race México, we just added this note to the intro:

This was largely a response to other shows in that franchise using original dialogue rather than subtitles, e.g. Drag Race España Season 2 has this quote:

(The previous discussion in this thread and ATT was partly based on that situation)

Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 25th 2024 at 11:21:34 AM

Posting to make public that we upvoted every option currently on the crowner.

That said, we're also wondering about considering the Luna+Sophie scenario equivalent to the Power Rangers scenario, rather than treating them separately.

~StarSword is probably the expert on the "Soko Potsdam" / "Luna + Sophie" situation, but my understanding is that the translation is generally accurate and doesn't change the work on an episode-by-episode basis.

The issue seems to be that it's not just a series about Luna and Sophie, and by using that title and stopping the translated version when their story ends, ignoring the seasons that follow, it paints a misleading picture of the series as a whole.

(Fair summary?)