Trope names with outdated and/or offensive language

On Sizable Semitic Nose: Fair point, although that does leave it in a similar position to the other Arabic examples - lacking enough context to function as actual examples. And then we're right back into running into issues with the trope name, if pretty much all of the proper examples are Jewish-based.

Overall, though, I'm of the mind the TLP launch for this one was handled a bit sloppily (with the mismatches with the supertrope Facial Profiling that I noted), which I suppose comes around every so often. General cleanup (including addressing the trope name) may be better off being handled somewhere other than this thread.

Edited by TotemicHero on Mar 21st 2023 at 8:07:48 AM

Looked back at the TLP draft for Sizable Semitic Nose, and the first comment was suggesting the use of "Semitic" to include non-Jewish Arabic characters. I couldn't find any concerns in the comments about the use of the term; there were, however, concerns about a proposed "Sizable Semitic Schnoz" title, specifically that it was too flippant and that the use of a Yiddish phrase would make for some less-than-pleasant optics when juxtaposed with imagery used in antisemitic propaganda. Given that, I think it's just down to most people not being aware of the connotations that come with juxtaposing "Semitic" with a Jewish stereotype.

Well Sizable Semitic Nose is by definition a racialist trope, so I actually think the use of the racialist term "Semitic" in the name is justified.

The problem comes in the description, which speaks of "Semitic people" like an objective category, without any hint of awareness that this is a racist classification:

I can see several things in the description which may need revision, but I think the term "Semitic" is admissible if it is clear we are talking about a racialist categorization, not a thing that objectively exists.

I mean, we'd have to get rid of the Arabic examples anyway if we did that, since as a racist epithet it's almost exclusively used to refer to Jewish people.

For everyone's reference, in its original context, Semitic refers to a grouping of related languages from West Asia and Africa (including Hebrew). It got hijacked in Europe in the late 19th century to refer negatively to Jewish people and culture, and snowballed for there. More detailed info here on Wikipedia.

Edited by TotemicHero on Mar 23rd 2023 at 9:34:24 AM

I wonder, if we have decided Evil Cripple and Genius Cripple are potentially offensive, then how about Crippling Overspecialization?

We haven't decided that. Two people have brought "Cripple" up and the conversation wasn't really followed. Also Crippling is derivative of a proper verb and doesn't always relate to disabilities.

That's different. Cripple as a noun is considered derogatory towards disabled people but crippling as a verb is fine.

Edited by MacronNotes on Apr 24th 2023 at 2:28:39 PM

I agree with keeping that the same because I didn’t find anything saying cripple (as a verb or at least in that sense) is offensive.

Handicapped Badass I really think this trope needs a rename to Disabled Badass or something as Handicapped is not really a term many in the Disabled Community like anymore:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/inclusive-communication/inclusive-language-words-to-use-and-avoid-when-writing-about-disability

https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/social-model-disability-language

https://adata.org/factsheet/ADANN-writing#:~:text=Use%20language%20that%20emphasizes%20the,the%20presence%20of%20a%20disability.&text=Note%20that%20%27handicapped%27%20is%20an,to%20individuals%20or%20accessible%20environments.

(The last one contradicts some of the first two because of different approaches in the UK and US around person first / identity first language but all three point out "Handicapped" as outdated)

This is the third time Handicapped Badass was brought up in the thread.

Huh. Didn't know "handicapped" was officially now considered outdated. I'm autistic and even I apparently can screw up.

For context -

Some discussion starting here. Further discussion from here.

It's not currently noted in the Outdated or Offensive Trope Names sandbox, but at this point I think it's worth adding there, if only so there's a starting point for discussion when it's brought up again.

Edited by Mrph1 on Apr 24th 2023 at 9:22:57 AM

I agree with Gracie and actually was going to add links myself until I saw their post. The UK is quite strict about avoiding the use of the word in official discourse as both outdated and offensive.

What I would flag about the Outdated or Offensive Trope Names mention is that, not only is Handicapped Badass not listed on there but the listings of Genius Cripple and Evil Cripple suggest changing the names to use "handicapped" instead of "cripple".

So, I do think Handicapped Badass needs to be added, and those two suggestions need to be rewritten.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Apr 27th 2023 at 10:49:46 AM

I agree. I'll go do that in a moment.

Those links above don't really include why handicapped is considered worse than disabled. "Handicapped person" doesn't immediately strike me as less person-centric than "disabled person", but it occurred to me that the other usual context of "handicap" is an artificial limitation (e.g. playing a game of chess starting with fewer pieces to give a weaker player a chance) so I went to look it up and this seems like it confirms that.

Another explanation:

I think the most salient point of your second link is that article tells us that the word originates from the horse-racing world and was applied to people to cover arange of factors in the same manner that it's used in horse-racing, before eventually being narrowed down solely to physical and mental disabilities (thereby becoming divorced from its origin in how it's being used) until disabled people objected and began to reject the term.

The article unfortunately doesn't include sources to verify its accuracy, but it's certainly an interesting read.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Apr 30th 2023 at 2:57:00 PM

should Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite be renamed? "hermaphrodite" is a very old-fashioned way to refer to intersex or nonbinary people... Hermaphrodite as well, though that has the separate issue that it should probably just be a useful note

Edited by NoUsername on May 19th 2023 at 4:33:32 AM

We brought that up at some point in the past, though we don't recall the details beyond it not going anywhere...

e: oh right it was linked in the discussion page and everything. It was 2015, things change.

Edited by wingedcatgirl on May 19th 2023 at 9:45:52 AM

"we don't usually rename tropes for being slurs" wow things have really changed. granted, at this point Transsexual was still considered a trope... i guess there might be a better case for renaming and moving it if a wick check is done

I mean, it's not technically not true, considering the whole Hot Gypsy Woman thing. It's more accurate to say that we rename them if possible but don't consider the use of a slur an immediate reason to change a page name, especially if there's no better options.

4x: There is a valid use case (for the word "hermaphrodite", I mean), but it's well covered by Bizarre Alien Sexes and clearly isn't what Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite is referring to.

I suppose TRS requests for this kind of reason does not need a wick check, but would require at least one suggested title, then?

from my understanding, no, but that's the reason why these kind of tropes don't get renames very often. the examples that got cut on Outdated or Offensive Trope Names were either merged due to redundancy or renamed due to causing misuse with unclear names. the others have stalled out due to otherwise not having TRS-able issues. (hence my suggestion to make Hermaphrodite a useful note and move it to UsefulNotes.Intersex, paralleling the move from Transsexual to UsefulNotes.Transgender.)

that said, while the original post links to Prescriptive vs. Descriptive Language (we trope the language used by the work, not the language we want to use), i think it's important to note cases where the name of the trope itself is already prescriptive (Everybody Wants the Hermaphrodite isn't exclusively about intersex, it's about nonbinary characters in general; Eskimos Aren't Real isn't exclusively about inuit people, and doesn't need a name that refers to them specifically). i feel like that might be a valid concern to raise when it comes to naming tropes this way.

I've always been sort of OK with Eskimos Aren't Real mostly because the word "Eskimo" evokes a specific cartoon-ass stereotype of real Native people, to the point where many Americans don't even know that they are real Native people. The word just sort of has a connotation of "funny igloo people". So it sort of reinforces the trope for me since it has more impact, since it's something people may realistically say in real life...

But then that's getting into Aluminum Christmas Trees territory, and when looking deeper the trope really doesn't care why the mistake was made, so. A change wouldn't hurt it, but it would take away some of what I personally think the title means now.

That's just me though. I've never been against renaming it, I know there are equally good names out there, but I've just always been able to personally tolerate it because of what I'd assumed the trope meant. Heck, if anything my reasoning HURTS the current title.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 19th 2023 at 2:27:16 PM

Everyone Wants The Enby rolls off the tongue a lot better, too.

Everybody Wants The Enby sounds great actually