Foundation (Apple TV+ series)

Doh!. Fixed

Looks good. Unfortunately I won't be able to watch it because I don't have Apple anything.

What other shows has Apple made? And have they been any good?

For All Mankind is really good. It's the alternate history series where the big divergence occurs when the Soviets got a man to the moon first.

Not Three Laws compliant.

Yeah, I've seen clips of that. Basically the Cold War spreads to the moon as both sides have moon-bases and at one point there's an incident where American astronauts shoot Soviet astronauts because the Soviets can't speak English and are trying to get their cheat sheet out of a box and the astronauts were jumpy.

I do wonder though how they're going to pace this. Isn't the Foundation narrative as we know it just a bunch of short stories that skip around a lot?

Edited by theLibrarian on Jun 30th 2021 at 10:41:35 AM

It's less "skips around a lot" and more that there's generally a big time skip between stories. The original trilogy is made up of about eight short stories collected into three books, in pure chronological order, but the first season of this show looks an awful lot like it's expanding the very short prequel chapter at the start of the original novel while incorporating elements from the two prequel novels into the mix too.

Not Three Laws compliant.

To be honest the collapse of a galaxy-spanning empire as the protagonists try to limit the damage would make a pretty compelling series on its own.

They refer to Forward the Foundation and Prelude to Foundation, along with the Gaal Dornick chapter, "The Psychohistorians".

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That essentially is the story of the Foundation Saga, up until Foundation's Edge. The so-called collapse of the Empire technically began before Hari Seldon was born, and the political body isn't completely gone until "The Mule". The protagonists all try to do something to preserve the culture/technology of civilized society as the galaxy regresses to barbarism. Seldon's "Dead Hand" is the primary continuity between events, as some of the protagonists aren't even from Terminus.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

New trailer:

I haven't seen tomorrow's episode, but am otherwise caught up. The series has been a bit odd in its approach. I'm reserving judgement on Demezrel, but Salvor seems very different from what was originally envisioned. Gaal is acting as a bridging element between multiple timelines, and I really do like their approach to Cleon's legacy. What will really sell me is how they actually handle the first Seldon Crisis. Despite being five episodes in, they're only just barely introducing the idea that Terminus might be caught in a war involving the Four Kingdoms, especially since only two of the four are even mentioned.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

If they do cut out two of the kingdoms, I do actually understand that. Anacreon is the only one that gets any development at all in the books and it barely gets any and the other three are basically just named with no elaboration. A four way war is also really difficult to write and the books are so vague about it that it’s really hard to tell what’s even going on.

Yeah, all four are threatening Terminus, but where are they in relation to Terminus? Is it somehow bordering all of them?

The show changing it to Anacreon and Thespis being at war with each other and each seeing Terminus as a potential asset against the other streamlines events without materially changing them.

Not Three Laws compliant.

They weren't, actually. Only Anacreon was. In fact, it was the need to prevent Anacreon's access to their technology that solved the first crisis. Before threatening Terminus, the Four Kingdoms were almost at parity in power.

In a stalemate between two factions, you're more likely for one to take the gamble (I can win) against the other single faction. But when a united three factions are an overwhelming power against you, you know the odds aren't good enough, creating a Mexican Standoff. Slavor Hardin creates and preserves this standoff during their first mayoral year.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Alright, one of the recent episodes really frustrated me. I was still holding out hope that Daneel was basically the same character, up until they revealed their devotion to the Goddess. Salvor is eh, close enough so far, and I still haven't decided if this is still Helicon Twisting Hari or a new character. On the other hand, with the revelation about Gaal, I'm thinking that Prequel Raych has been incorporated into her character. Not sure how I feel about that. Following the Second Foundation sounds really interesting, and I consider the Cleon stuff a bit of filler/worldbuilding. The only thing I've disliked about that is the possession of personal force-shields, and retconning that aspect of "The Merchant Princes" is relatively minor. Watching the accelerated collapse of the central government has been a good way to add more politics and humanization to this otherwise dry work.

However, I'm so far associating this series more with Nightfall (1988) than I, Robot or "Little Lost Robot".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I'm enjoying it. Even with the changes.

Like, an immortal robot that clearly believes they are soulless being an adherent to a religion built around a cycle of reincarnation and rebirth is a fascinating idea that's honestly kind of heartbreaking when you think about it. It's not an Asimov idea, but there is precedent in his short stories for a robot buying into a religion. Granted, that particular robot kind of made up a religion whole cloth.

Part of the reason the original books are so hard to adapt is because they're honestly kind of thinly sketched. Each major character is distinct, but they're all pretty flat and, until you hit Foundation's Edge, the most developed character is Arkady Darrell.

The thing I absolutely love about the show though is that it does something Asimov didn't even try until Foundation's Edge/Foundation and Earth. Every single planet and culture we see is distinct, with a unique aesthetic. Synnax, Trantor, Terminus, the Maiden (and presumably Helicon too) all are impossible to mistake for each other and even the people look distinct in how they dress and speak and behave.

The books are very big picture in how they handle things, using snapshots of various moments to show what's happening. The show does that too, but it's a lot more focused on the characters and building up to the events. I mean, one of the things in the first book is that everything around the Imperial warship is just kind of there. Anacreon finds it off-screen, as it were, and it being shut down just kinda happens. The show adds the build-up in, giving the audience more to latch on to and get invested in.

That's kind of the problem. A glorified anthology show about a succession of smart people thwarting crises with all the big exciting things happening behind the scenes because none of the viewpoint characters happen to be there to see them would probably be super dry and difficult to watch. I don't think what we're getting is the best adaptation...but it's an adaptation that I personally really like. It's fine if people don't like it though.

Edited by Zendervai on Nov 2nd 2021 at 9:47:12 AM

Not Three Laws compliant.

I disagree; I think a "soulless robot" buying into religion, even reincarnation, is totally an Asimov-like idea. I just don't believe this religion fits this robot.

There are still a number of reasonable changes made that neither of us have mentioned, I merely pointed out what I felt were the improvements made over the original work.

One change that I'm ambivalent on is that people from the Fifty Worlds (Spacers) are still around in some form. They were a source of transhumanism in the books and we're getting a slightly different take on it here to go with the different world-building. It isn't good or bad yet, just different, something that I generally expect.

That would also be a terrible adaptation of the original stories. The characters were able to make small effects, but overall their ability to control the outcome of the crisis was supposed to be nil. Economic and Religious forces being too "large" for any person or small group of persons to affect.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Nov 3rd 2021 at 9:12:03 AM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Sooo is anyone keeping up with this show? I'm not at all familiar with the source, but I did not care very much for season 1's writing (thought Lee Pace and co MVP, Salvor/Gaal material choppy) but greatly admired the visuals and production. Season 2 feels much more even, and they're not skimping on the Scenery Porn.

I am. The first season was stuck having to set everything up, including the characters, but the second season is way better.

And a very late response, the Spacers in the show have nothing to do with the 50 Worlds. Like, at all.

Not Three Laws compliant.