Wheel of Time

When does Perrin see the future, actually?

The original poster mentioned the Wolf Brothers seeing the past, which I took as a visualization of the Wolves like, piecing together the events of a crime scene using their senses. Like how Batman in the Arkham games can reconstruct an event using his cowl by like, scanning evidence.

Edited by GNinja on Apr 16th 2024 at 1:41:56 PM

Actually, that's a good interpretation, and one that hadn't occurred to me.

Wolves are shown as being very visual. They also, naturally, have very good non-visual senses.

It might make sense, then, that a Wolfbrother—a human not accustomed to wolfish senses—could interpret the input of those non-visual senses in a visual way.

[edit] It also occurs to me that it allows for Show, Don't Tell: the input of various non-visual, non-auditory senses would otherwise presumably be relayed in dialogue, which can get a little exposition-y.

(One could present scents as visual trails and the like—but that doesn't do much to convey to the viewer what those scents indicate and imply.)

Presenting the results as hallucinations allows the viewer to see what wolfish senses are indicating.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Apr 17th 2024 at 11:18:53 AM

Okay, I misread that post. As penance, I have burned all of my worldly possessions, given all of my money as alms, and moved to Kansas.

Also, I would disagree that the books made Rand a bit character. The story is much bigger than just Rand, and there are a lot of chapters where he doesn't appear at all, but he still plays a bigger role in the plot than any other single character.

In this show, though? VB has yet to see how pointless Rand is in this show.

I'm in this interesting position where the "Rand is useless" thing will probably only start bothering if it continues into the next season or 2

Because I personally didn't start liking Rand as a character until book 4. That's when he stops steamrolling everything via being a prodigy.

Edited by GNinja on Apr 18th 2024 at 7:16:30 PM

Eh, he gains a point over the course of the season, as I recall. It felt a lot to me like he started to come into his own over time.

My suspicion—and it is just a guess—is that he'll start coming to the fore to a greater degree in the next season. But we'll see!

Someone remind me, please: in the books, where did balefire start coming into play? I recall Rand using it, I just don't recall when...

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Apr 18th 2024 at 9:18:21 PM

I think that's book 3 Moiraine kills Be'lal with it at the end, and I think it's first used by her to kill some darkhounds

Edited by GNinja on Apr 18th 2024 at 7:26:08 PM

Rand on the show has little personality, no real character arc across two seasons, and literally had the main plot of book 2 cut in favor of making him Lanfear's boy toy. His "contribution" to the finale was perfunctory, made no sense as it relied on Ishamael spontaneously giving up and letting Rand stab him, and made Rand look like a total idiot because he grabs his own sword by the blade while stabbing Ishamael.

And Brandon Sanderson would agree. While watching the season 2 finale, he noted that Rand was basically pointless and they could have given Egwene a sword to the same effect.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Apr 18th 2024 at 3:46:59 AM

Ah, thank you! I'm guessing then that Rand's usage comes in later!

That particular weave is one that I'm particularly enthused to see! ^_^

In that case... I would disagree with both you and Brandon Sanderson, I suppose. *shrugs*

(This got a bit long, so I'm editing to break it up into sections. I also rearranged a bit.)

Regarding Rand's Character

Rand's character arc thus far is, I would say, largely about figuring out and accepting what he is.

Regarding Rand Having "No Point"

And again, my feeling is that Rand's "point" is largely developing. He doesn't have to be hugely important now if the show is working itself up to him being hugely important later.

Regarding Rand and Lanfear

As to Rand and Lanfear, that's part of said arc, and I quite liked that plot-thread. That it replaces part of the original books is, to my mind, not all that important: the series isn't the books. As I see things, it's allowed to change things.

(I'm actually quite excited to see where this iteration of Lanfear goes!)

Regarding Ishamael's Defeat

As to Ishamael, I just re-watched that scene, and I'd say that it's arguable: Ishamael had just spent a lot of energy trying to brute-force his way through a powerful wall, on top of which he saw Rand—who he had reason to believe was done for—suddenly get up and advance on him. I could see him being tired and shocked.

Indeed, that would match the stunned, shocked, then at peace expression that he has at the time. Something unthinkable had happened—and then he realised that he might be about to be killed. (Remember: he was a bit of a Death Seeker.)

Regarding the Sword-grip

As to the sword-grip, I'm pretty sure that it's a real thing—albeit that I'm not sure that it's generally done with a katana, let alone one that's hot.

The link goes to the Wikipedia page on the subject. And indeed, it shows the grip being used pretty much as we see in the show, to stab someone in the chest.

[edit further]
With a bit of quick searching, I've found some claims and videos indicating that half-swording was indeed applied to the katana, albeit not as much as with European swords.

That said, I don't have solid references for this, so I present this only as hearsay.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Apr 18th 2024 at 11:42:48 AM

Ishamael doesn't want to die, he wants to not exist. And the only way to do that is to destroy reality all together.

That article on half-swording said the purpose was to make thrusts more accurate against armored opponents, so it still doesn't make any sense to do it against an unarmored, unresisting enemy.

There's also the idea of Rand deciding to kill one of the Forsaken, who previously demonstrated the ability to revive from Stan wounds, by stabbing him.

Rand's adventure in the book was not only more interesting, it clearly ties into his character development; he learns from the portal some that he can't escape his destiny. He learned the basics of politics from his time in Cairhien. He learned about the importance of self-sacrifice risking good life to save the sniffer from a burning building. What did he learn in Season 2 of the show? Fuck women so they'll do things for you?

Sure, but dying would be a respite at least. See how he reacts to death in the episode, after all.

Training may prompt one to use a technique even when, viewed from a strictly logical perspective, it's superfluous.

I imagine that most training is done under the assumption that the opponent would be armoured, at least in a region such as Rand's, so it makes sense that Rand might be trained to half-sword on performing a killing thrust.

By stabbing him with a Power-enhanced blade, let me note.

Each to their own!

I would say that he likewise learned that he can't run from his destiny: he tried exactly that—it's pretty much when Season 1 left him—and then part of his destiny literally came and slept in his bed.

He did make a bare start on the matter of politics under Lanfear's tutelage, as I recall, when he was going for that bottle of wine.

But overall, it looks to me like Rand's journey in the series is more of a slow-burn, section-for-section.

And I'm fine with that.

If you're not, that's okay!

(Although I'll argue that this doesn't make the show bad.)

That's doing the show's work for it. Rand's "training" in the show was a few lines of dialogue with an Assylum patient at the start of season 2. The idea that this was a result of a flaw in Rand's training isn't even implied, and the Doylist reason I've found - that they put the heron mark on the wrong part of the sword and Rand grabbing the blade was the only way to brand his hand - frankly does not inspire confidence.

And even if you're right, then that still means that Rand doesn't really know what he's doing with the sword.

Leaving aside that "power-enhancing" isn't a thing in the books and I really don't understand how it fits into the magic system, how did Rand know to do this? How did he know it would work? Also, why use his sword and not the One Power? That would have been the logical conclusion to how the scene was building up. Heck, the scene could have been improved just by having Rand shield Ishamael and then stab him, with the explanation that Rand reverse engineered the shield weave from the one he cut off Moiraine. That would tie together what Rand had done across the season and make the scene make more sense.

I frankly don't think the next season is going to portray Rand any differently. Rand spent all of season 2 either doing what Moiraine wanted him to, or doing what Lanfear wanted him to. He hasn't shown any signs of independence. I doubt he's suddenly going to become a great hero.

Unfortunately, that's far from the only problem I have with the show. I don't think it's done much better with any of the other characters, including Moiraine. Matt's character arc is season 2 is everybody telling him he's an awful person until he blows the Horn of Valere and decides that he isn't. And he stabs Rand. Nynaeve and Elayne stay in Falme to try and find a way to save Egwene, but then Egwene escapes on her own and the buildup to her rescue is pointless. Moiraine gets into a bunch of arguments with people not because it will have some larger payoff, but because they need a reason to have Rosamund Pike onscreen.

I don't feel like the people making this show really know how to properly put together a long-term story or character arc. And that's the main reason I harp on changes from the books so much; I feel like they're rejecting a well-structured story in favor of something that isn't.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Apr 20th 2024 at 7:10:33 AM

Spent a few days dealing with a screwed-up circadian rhythm, so I've just watched episode 2.

Rand's back! I like how the auld fella he's looking after "mistakes" him for an Aiel.

Speaking of which, let's talk about race. Since this turning of the Wheel is a bit off the rails, I guess they might not be doing the "blood of our blood, raised by an ancient blood not ours", so they wouldn't need to have the Two Rivers be as isolated as in the books. I still raise an eye at the district being as diverse as Los Angeles, but whatever. But if they want the protagonists to be diverse, then ¿why oh why is Rand lily-white?, when it's a major plot point that he's mixed-race, and in the books is explicitly described as having the darkest skin in Emond's Field. Maybe Josha was the only actor they could find who is tall enough, but that just strikes me as a weird casting choice.

Also, language! Yeah, Amazon does clearly want this to be their own Game of Thrones, as evidenced by their having proper cursing in it. There does seem to be a thing that the Emond's Fielders don't say anything worse than "bloody", which I guess is to replace the clash of sexual mores. Likewise, Mat uses real curses to show his status as the Sir Swearsalot of the Dragon ka-tet.

Speaking of sexual mores, sex! Again, the writers are totally sexing up the main characters to make it more like Game of Thrones, right? There also seems to be something of a trend (in general, not just in this series) of overcorrecting 1950s attitudes, such that American writers are deathly afraid of portraying anybody as having reservations about sex lest they be accused of Slut-Shaming. This means we lose one of the most fun bits of culture shock from the books. In the books, the people of the Two Rivers are incredibly prudish, and are surprised upon venturing out into the wider world to find that everyone else has much more open, permissive attitudes towards sex, while in the show, they're as open as everybody else, except for that one Green Aes Sedai who has regular threesomes with her Warders. Instead, as I said in the previous paragraph, the culture clash seems to take the form of the Emond's Fielders using milder language, but that's hardly the same thing.

As for Rand shtupping Lanfear, I'm actually OK with it. Rand at this point is alone, scared, and vulnerable, and Lanfear is actively trying to seduce him. They obviously shouldn't stay together, but it's not out of character for this incarnation. Also, I love the double entendres inherent in Lanfear's pillow talk.

I read the responses to my last post before I started watching this episode, and no, Perrin's visions aren't a representation of his sense of smell. In this one, we get another, longer vision, of a family that is killed by a Myrdraal. Perrin initially thinks they're real people, is shocked to see their corpses and food are rotting, and Elyas, who sees the same thing, obliquely offers to help him tell the difference between vision and reality. Yeah, these are actual visions. Maybe it's something to do with Tel'aran'rhiod, but so far it's a really weird inclusion.

Another weird change. Aes Sedai in the show are knowledgeable about herbs and medicine, and use them extensively. In the books, they disdain them in favour of the One Power, and Nynaeve thinks they're being ridiculous for this.

Mat seems to be getting some of his book characterisation. I approve.

I guess that with skipping Caemlyn, they need to establish that Elayne is a princess, you know. Oh, hey, she mentioned Cadsuane! Still, they seem to get her overall personality right. I'm sure they just hired an English actress because Yanks think English accents are posh, but I always read Andoran royalty as sounding English, so good choice. And yeah, Ceara Coveney is really good here.

I held judgement on Meera Syal's portray as Verin last episode, but I will say she is really good. She really manages to capture the dreamy and slightly ditzy woman who is clearly more than she seems.

Liandrin has a son who she genuinely cares for. I am not sure how I feel about that. In the books, Ingtar became a Darkfriend out of a mistaken belief he could use it to help secure his country. I wonder if the writers intend something similar with Liandrin.

We get the story of how Moiraine and Lan met, but for some reason they leave out the bit where, after Lan threw Moiraine in the pond, Moiraine dropped the pond on Lan.

Then the Seanchan appear at the end, and by the Light the damane look silly. Surely the collars would be enough to sell that they're slaves? And Ishamael is pulling their strings? Does this mean Semirhage won't be appearing?

Ooh, Rand is going to be spending time with Logain! This is something I'm really up for.

Overall, this was interesting. Season 2 doesn't so much adapt The Great Hunt as take inspiration from it, and so far it's been pretty good. Looking forward to seeing more.

As an American... I'm really not sure why people are so enamored with English accents. I'm friends with a few English expats, and I wouldn't say any of them sound "posh".

And yeah, apparently in the show "damane" means "those who suck pacifiers".

Come S3 I really hope they revert to collars and chains. Don't explain the change, don't mention it, don't even acknowledge anything is different, just hard retcon it and let the viewers deal.

Anyway, watched E3, and I'm liking it. Nynaeve's Accepted trial was as impressive as the Internet promised, and I give the writers props for some truly impressive fakeoutery.

Rand is learning a bunch of things from Lanfear that he learned from Moiraine in the books. That's definitely a choice.

Between Nynaeve's initiation, Rand's introduction to Daes Dae'mar, Perrin's hunt for Padan Fain, and the queen of Cairhien calling a Hunt For The Horn, the show does appear to be hitting the same beats as The Great Hunt, but is changing the context of some aspects, and putting others in a different order. It's definitely different, which isn't inherently better or worse.

It doesn't really follow the same beats, aside from Egwene's subplot. Rand never actually gets involved in the Hunt for the Horn.

Also, why does the Hunt exist as a cultural institution in this world when the Shainarans had the Horn?

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Apr 20th 2024 at 12:52:26 PM

Maybe they didn't know it was in there.

IIRC, one of the nobles in Cairhien explained that the Hunt for the Horn is like, an intentional fool's errand designed to keep the poors in line.

Like, it gives the peasants something to go off and kill themselves over, freeing up space so there aren't as many of them crowding the Foregate.

So yeah, I'd say it's that combined with the Borderlanders not advertising that they have it.

Edited by GNinja on Apr 20th 2024 at 9:51:43 AM

That too.

Can't say I'm a fan of the idea of the Hunt for the Horn being a transparent plot to kill off poor people. Or, by association, that Rand's entire understanding of politics comes from Lanfear, even if the show tries as hard as possible to make Lanfear less of a villain.

Also, if nobody knows where the Horn is, how did Padan Fain know where to find it?

Even in the books, didn't Lanfear have a vested interest in making Rand as competent as possible?

Like, she's the one who set Rand up with Asmodean to teach him how to channel properly.

Edited by GNinja on Apr 20th 2024 at 12:00:26 PM

In the books, when Rand has political power his reforms include greater legal equality between nobility and commoners. That's a reflection of his own beliefs. If he ever does the same thing in the show, it will be because Lanfear put the idea in his head. That would be more of Rand losing his agency, and further diluting the idea that Lanfear is a villain.

Of course, that may not be how it plays out. There may not even be any reference to it in the future, but the scenario I laid out is a possibility given what the show has already done.

I also don't like that the show seems to treat Lanfear's temptation of Rand as a sign of genuine affection on her part, rather than manipulation driven by a desire for power.

I'm going to push back on that a bit. Even in the books, Lanfear didn't think of Less Therin as a mere stepping stone to power. She genuinely loved him, in the same way that a stalker genuinely loves their target, and in her POV section in Winter's Heart, she's mostly concerned with how much of a jerk he is to have dumped her of all people for some redhead in two different incarnations.

(As for the future, que sera sera)

Not a lot to take note of in episode 4 except that the ending was impressive. I suspect all the stuff with Lanfear hits quite differently if you haven't read the books.

Wheels grind on, and there are fw big twists. Perrin's subplot works for me, and I'll reserve judgement on Min's. It also feels like they're combining Liandrin with Elaida, which I really hope I'm wrong about.

Elaida's been cast apparently, so we're probably getting her.

@MisterTambourineMan:

Enough to indicate that he has been training.

In any case, half-swording isn't something that one is likely to do without training, I daresay.

Er, I never said that this was a flaw in training. This is literally how training works: it gives you predetermined responses to various situations.

After all, in the thick of combat one doesn't really have time to stand and consider what move is best to make. So, one trains responses such that one will have a move ready when called for.

Now, in a place where armour is available, it makes sense that the training for "I'm about to stab a combatant" is "half-sword and stab".

(Note that he doesn't try a cutting attack, despite the use of a katana; cutting tends to work poorly against steel armour.)

Where does this suggested reason come from?

No, on the contrary: it means that he's well-trained in the sword. (Or at least has been well-trained in at least one move with the sword.)

Intuition?

I'd also guess that it's fairly straightfoward: just dump a lot of Fire (and maybe Spirit?) into the blade.

I'd guess that he has much more familiarity with the wielding of a sword—by which I don't just mean formal training, to be clear—than with the wielding of the Power, so it seems natural that he might default to the former.

I mean, that just brings up the same question of when he learned how to reverse-engineer unfamiliar weaves, and calls for more in-scene explanation.

What we got is, I would say, simple, intuitive, and natural.

Well, I suppose that we shall see with time! Right now we are, of course, both just guessing.

Fair enough! And I'm sorry to read it!

I disagree on those points, myself—but I really don't have the energy to want to argue everything about the show!

That's the thing: I find the story to be thoroughly enjoyable thus far. I feel like they're doing a very good job indeed.

Which is why, I suppose, it irks me when you frame your points not as "I dislike this" or "this didn't work for me", but rather as a universal "this is bad and poorly-done".

~

@VampireBuddha:

This I'll agree with! Naturally, there might be those who like the increase in sexuality, but I'm not a huge fan of that trend, myself.

Hah! I am grateful for the reminder of a rather good scene with Egwene that revolves around this! XD;

I think that my favourite part there was kinda the opposite: She tells him something to the effect that if he leaves her (or crosses her? I forget), she'll kill him.

Which, without foreknowledge, sounds I daresay like a fairly fiction-standard "she's aggressive and jealous, but she doesn't really mean that"...

Except that it's Lanfear. She absolutely means exactly what she said. If he crosses her, she will attempt to literally murder him. XD;

I still think that they could be connected: that it's essentially a response to the enhanced senses in a brain that's not really wired for them. They're visions—but they're visions that are produced as a response to unfamiliar sensory data.

But indeed, maybe it's a Tel'aran'rhiod thing—there is a potential connection there, I believe.

Hmm, interesting—I could certainly see that being a thing.

Oof, yeah, I'd forgotten about that—that was good! ^_^

Also: I'm glad to read that you seem to be enjoying the show overall, so far! ^_^