During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Darius and Moriarty
Yes for Moriarty!
The Draftsman of Doom
to Moriarty
Lies and Violence!
I admit I was considering that Von Karma myself, but I have to concur that the song still retains too many of his most horrible acts and smugness for the Large Ham to overcome.
Snide, the beyblade ones, Darius and Moriarty.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to the Beyblade duo, Darius, and Moriarty.
Quote suggestion that I am unsure of:
I don't know if this fits this trope or something else.
Edited by Bullman on Oct 6th 2022 at 6:38:46 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Dark Priest himself
Since no one have conserved him, I am proposing Zhiyi from Genshin Impact as MB, whose role in the story likely has ended already. Also, it would be the same as his proposal from Magnificent Baddie Wiki, afterall I proposed him there.
What is the work?
Genshin Impact is an open world game with unstable plot quality developed in 2020 that take place in the continent of Tevyat. It is best known of a large variety of waifues and husbanoes, the beautiful landscape and tons of drama, also Ganyu who is da best girl in the game. And our candidate comes from Calculated Gambit ,the story quest of Yelan, so, let’s see what Zhiyi has done!
Who is Zhiyi?
Zhiyi is a man from the city of Liyue, he lost his parents when he was a child and has to live a life of poverty and being rejected from society. However, he is still willing to help other people as he grew up and with Uncle Tian, a member of Liyue Qixing, a group of seven that governs over Liyue being his mentor and father figure
What has he done?
Eventually, Uncle Tian’s heath worsen, thus, he considered to step down from his position and have three potent successors chosen, and Zhiyi is one of them, and Zhiyi, among the three potential successors are the one that seems to be most suitable due to the other two being too arrogant or nervous. They then returned to Tian to talk about the three candidates, to which Tian remarked Zhiyi being kind and been providing a fish soup recipe to him that Zhiyi claims to have obtained from fisherman . In reality, Zhiyi used a poison he obtained from Fatui and added them to fish soup, which not only covered the poison’s taste and smell, but even enhanced the taste of fish soup. And while during investigation Yelan and Traveler find out that Zhiyi is popular among Liyue Harbour. In reality, Zhiyi worked with the Fatui ambassador Yusupov to have him help him into spreading positive rumours about him among Liyue Harbour, with Zhiyi promising will do whatever they say.
However, at the same time, Yelan also found out Zhiyi’s poor background and is broke even during the story quest and that his positive reputation only popped out recently. Thus, she begins to feel suspicious of Zhiyi. And thus, they begins to look for more on his information, such as his manifesto, in which one mentioned about Qingxu Pool, a place infested with monsters, but is said to have treasures. Thus, Yelan and the Traveler heads to Blackcliff Forge, which is responsible for operations such as mining, as it is said that it is required to obtain the treasure. They soon learnt from Blackcliff Forge that there have been newcomers to them, who, Yelan soon found out to be Fatui, a terroristic group, but they failed to find any evidence. However, Yelan soon learnt form Wupei, one of her subordinate that none of the fisherman have been providing Zhiyi with any fish soup recipe. Thus making Yelan to suspect Zhiyi even more, but decided to lower his guards by announcing he will be the new Liyue Qixin member.
After announcing that, Zhiyi headed to buy strong liquors wineset for two people and headed to Qixin Pool to celebrate with the Fatui ambassador Yusupov, whom Zhiyi secretly works with and has him and the Fatui to help spreading good rumours about him. They drink together, eventually Yusupov gets drunk, and Zhiyi, being aware that Fatui wanted to use him as puppet poisoned Yusupov as he used the wine’s strong favour to hide the poison’s favour. Yusupov said that his Fatui subordinates will know of this, however Zhiyi already expected it and kidnapped them and put them in a dark room with explosives, ready to blow it up to bury them along with Yusupov. However unknown best to Zhiyi, Yusupov has been tailed by Yelan and the Traveler, while at first Zhiyi tried to explain it as a Fatui plot, Yelan didn’t fall for it and have Zhiyi and Yusupov arrested. Later, it was revealed that Yelan gave an offer to Zhiyi and had him work for her, which Zhiyi accepted.
How is he magnificent?
Yes, very much. He cleverly used the taste of fish soup to cover the taste of the poison and turns it into a poison that slowly worsen Tian’s health and thus would be hard to notice, and even poisoned Yusupov when he is careless. He even had prepared an antidote for himself to drink the poison wine incase he need to do it to convince Yusupo to drink it. He even prepared three escape routes incase things go south, and have Yusupov‘s subordinates captured. And when Yusupov pointe out that his right hand Theofan will notice it and reported to higher ups, Zhiyi revealed that he actually has been working with Theofan who wanted to take over Yusupov’s position. He even cleverly tricked fatui into Qixin Pool so that he could get rid of them all at once. As a result, he is definitely magnificent enough. And is he a smug snake? Definitely not, in fact, he has low self-esteem.
Competition?
So far, the potential Genshin MB is Enjou , who downright tricked the Traveler through disguise and is affable. Meanwhile there are potential like Zhongli who worked with Fatui to test Liyue humans to see rather they can protect themselves. But Enjou is an Abyss Order member and Zhongli is a god, so they have far more resources in terms of trickery. There is also Dori, Cyno and Nahida from Sumeru who might fit, but they are released after Yelan’s Story Quest. And Zhiyi, who managed to nearly trick everyone aside from Yelan and Traveler, could stand out.
Is he a baddie?
Umm, he poisoned two people and tried to bury a bunch of Fatui under the rubbles. But this is all for pragmatic villainy to tie up loose ends , so he won’t be too evil. Not to mention that he is remorseful over poisoning Undle Tian.
Does he has a villainous breakdown?
He has one after Yelan revealing evidence that he failed to clean, but in the end of the quest, Yelan did mention that Zhiyi is “cooperating” with her and accepts her deal instead of cursing her or not cooperating. Thus, it can be presumed that Zhiyi accepted his defeat and moved on.
Final Thought
Yes, and hopefully, Sumeru Story Quest will be an improvement from the mess from Inazuma.…
Edited by TadiTadTa on Oct 6th 2022 at 9:07:00 PM
I think Iike Gundam and Dragon Quest too much
RIP Toriyama
Yes to Zhivi, Darius, Moriarty and Snide!
Gonna snag Mayfair Witches here.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Beyblade duo, Darius, Jim Moriarty.
For Zhiyi, what does low self-esteem mean? Is he very mopey as a character?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
The Dark Priest himself
Lack of self-confidence, and no he isn’t mopey
I think Iike Gundam and Dragon Quest too much
Alright Zhiyi.
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Zhiyi, Bull's quote
One last quote suggestion from me now, starring Lex Luthor and Brainiac from Justice League.
Brainiac: "My programme will be complete, it will be the end of all things."
Lex Luthor: "What if it were just the beginning? I can show you a purpose beyond the fulfilment of your programming."
Brainiac: "It is extremely unlikely that your inferior human intellect has anything to offer me."
Lex Luthor: "Since we've become so close I'm gonna let that pass. I'm offering the one thing you've always lacked. A certain something that I have in abundance."
Brainiac: "Which is...?"
Lex Luthor: "Imagination. I've got a proposition for you...partner."
Thoughts?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
I hate spoilers
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
to the quote, though there's a typo on the first "program".
Edited by 227someguy on Oct 6th 2022 at 11:35:24 AM
Everyone look at my sandbox
Proposed an image for Super Mario on Image Pickin'
That's really not a good image at all. Good images are hard to find for this trope, and I already know I might not bother trying for the Fallout page.
Speaking of, I already know this quote from Mr House will make an excellent page quote.
“I have no interest in abusing others, just as I have no interest in legislating or otherwise dictating what people do in their private time. Nor have I any interest in being worshipped as some kind of machine god messiah. I am impervious to such corrupting ambitions. But autocracy? Firm control in the hands of a technological and economic visionary? Yes, that Vegas shall have.”
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Oct 6th 2022 at 8:49:34 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Yes to Tsubasa, Ryo, Darius, Moriarty, Zhiyi, & all three quotes. The Bowser pic, as I said before, is pure JAFAAC.
Yeah for me I thought they always needed a "overcoming The Hero in fashion" or a chess motif. We'll likely never get an image for visual novels, unless Miles Edgeworth is approved Ace Attorney with the whole logic chess thing but yeah it's WAY WAAAY easier to find an image for Complete Monster than MB. I USED to think Evil Overlooker was enough but it really isn't. The character has to literally be outfoxing (extremely hard to find images of) or playing chess with someone and winning.
Yes to Moriarty, Darius and Zhiyi.
But yes, images for this trope are not easy to find as A. It has to explain without words why that character is magnificent AND a bastard it can't just be one or the other. I think if we were given permission to use fanartist pictures finding images would be far easily as I believe there's fanart of Simon Keyes from Ace Attorney playing "masterminding the game" literally. But even then, damn... I literally don't have a clue on how a picture could not fit those extremely strict guidelines and not be approved.
For a second there until I read the next post I thought you were talking about the Hugh Laurie character from... well.... [[Series/House]].
Edited by Klavice on Oct 6th 2022 at 9:04:21 AM
I like that House quote, though I like this one from the quotes page a bit more.
- "I haven't shown my hand - I've shown one card. I've given my enemies a single, provocative datum upon which to fixate. They have no idea what other cards I'm holding. It's a strong hand, believe me - I dealt it to myself."
The MILF Virus
Zhiyi
Actually I got a pretty good image for Visual Novels that isn't Ace Attorney or Danganronpa, thing is the character hasn't been proposed yet but I have been collaborating with someone for the candidate, and to be fair this character has plenty to talk about so we gotta wait.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I literally said it's not Danganronpa. It's someone else, and someone I would do but my collab partner for this series wanted to take this candidate so I'll leave it to them.
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Oct 7th 2022 at 12:14:46 AM
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
I'm wondering if you mean Kokichi Oma from Danganronpa V3, but I've been through that game multiple times now and while I have less bias against him now (it was mainly the fact the narrative treated him as a "good guy" for exposing Gonta as the killer in case 4, and following that, trying to end the killing game by amoral means,) but my former bias aside, I'm not going to randomly guess who it is if I don't know but for Kokichi, I've seen all his manipulative shots multiple times and none of them make him look magnificent despite me personally believing he's worth a recheck like Gundham was.
Edit: Oh... I misread that. Never mind then. I think it's probably Ghost Trick if I had to guess.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 6th 2022 at 9:21:45 AM
The wifi here sucks
I personally prefer Riley's quote for the Fallout page (though the other one is good for the quotes page)
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Tsubasa, Ryo, Darius, Moriarty and Zhiyi
Goku Black
Zhiyi
to Zhiyi.
Hell yes to that kill-stealing fuck Darius and a yes to Moriarty as well.