Marvel-DC Merged Universe Community Project...

Before he became Red Hulk at least.

Which one killed Adolf Hitler in this continuity? Human Torch (1939) or Unknown Soldier?

I like imagining they ended up infiltrating his bunker at the same time and Adolf Hitlarity Ensued.

You could have Hank Pym and Ray Palmer be buddies and former colleagues who developed different methods for shrinking.

But Ray's method doesn't let him become giant, but may be slightly safer (with Pym Particles having a bad affect on some people, especially if they already have mental issues....like say being bipolar). Pym Particles can be safe with the right precautions, and Hank does adapt, but never 100% recovers and continues to have issues....fortunately, he also doesn't fall as far as his regular marvel self.

Similarities between (Silver Age) Kryptonians and The Kree:

• Names (Kree also have the two-syllables separated by a dash thing (Kal-El, Mar-Vell)
• clothing (though that might be a coincidence)
• Kryptonians were originally settlers who fled from a war [a man named Kryp and a woman named Ton]
• Kree have Eternals, which as I pointed out have superman-like powers. There's like only one left though.
• Even regular Kree have a degree of superhuman strength from living on a high gravity world [which was also the case with Superman].
• Contrary to appearances most Kree are Caucasian, not Blue, the Blues are just the ruling minority.

With all this, I find it very hard to assume it's all a coincidence. There are other things like Ultra-Girl, an obvious Supergirl Expy, also being a Kree.

Admittedly, there were differences as well, like the Kree being ruled by the Supremor rather than a Science Council. But like in said in my headcanon, Krypton was, by the time it exploded, independent of the Empire.

Carol Danvers, the Distaff Counterpart to Kree superhero, Captain Mar-Vell, also shares her last name with the original incarnation of Supergirl.

Carol has also had quite a bit in common with Power Girl since the 2010s.

Let's not forget both had a terrible Mystical Pregnancy storyline with a baby that aged rapidly into adulthood. Or... actually, let's.

Barbara Minerva and Greer Nelson are two archaeologists on an expedition to learn more about the fabled Cat People. They are successful and Minerva reveals her intent to claim the powers of the Cat People's champion for immortality and in doing so becomes the Cheetah, a beast of insatiable hunger. To atone for leading Minerva to the Cat People's secrets, Greer agrees to become the Cat People's champion and assumes the identity of Tigra.

Huh. Tying Cheetah and Tigra's origins together huh?

People have pitted them against each other, but as I understand it, Cheetah has always been on a much higher tier than Tigra (since the former is a Wonder Woman rogue), so Cheetah would either need to be massively nerfed, or Tigra massively buffed.

I mean, most DC characters are stronger than Marvel's on principle. You'd need to buff and debuff everyone to balance the scales.

Edited by kkhohoho on Nov 9th 2020 at 11:47:20 AM

I'd like that. It would make for some great fights.

....so Teen Titans vs New Warriors or Young Justice vs Champions (2016)

Maybe this was true at some point but I don't think it applies now. Especially when you look at the X-Men.

In my headcanon The Danvers who raised Supergirl are related to Carol Danvers, making the two sort-of cousins. :D

As for the DC vs Marvel power levels, I prefer to lower the DC characters to a level where they are even with their Marvel equivalents because their Silver Age levels of power are just ridiculous [Superman used to be able to make planets]. Only those with some explanation keep such powers [ex. Flash can exceed the speed of light thanks to the Speed Force.]

So here's a fun Mind-Game: combining Marvel and DC Events!

For example: Civil War + Legends.

It begins with Darkseid gloating he will destroy people's faith in its heroes. The Phantom Stranger shows up and tells him he'll never succeed. Darkseid extracts a vow from The Stranger that he won't interfere, to prove his point. Of course, what he really wants is to remove PS from the field. PS accepts.

Darkseid creates the atomic monster Brimstone, which lures in the Justice League. It explodes, and while the heroes survive, hundreds of innocent people in the town of Stamford, Conn. die. The League is blamed and the public, swayed by media pundit Gordon Godfrey (secretly a Darkseid agent with a hypnotic voice) turns their opinion again all heroes.

Tony Stark helps congress write up the Superhuman Registration Act, and the President signs it. This splits most heroes into two sides, Pro-SHRA (led by Iron Man and Captain Atom) and Anti-SHRA (led by Superman and Captain America.) Some, such as Dr. Strange and the X-Men, remain neutral.

This leads to numerous clashes, including Superman fighting Thor (actually a cyborg clone of the real, at-the-time dead Thor) The government's Task-Force X reforms The Thunderbolts using hardened villains (some equipped with explosive devices to ensure their cooperation) and have them help hunt down the heroes.

Once Darkseid feels the heroes are sufficiently weakened and demoralized, he attacks Washington, DC. with his Warhounds. However, Dr. Fate, unlike Strange, interferes and gathers heroes to oppose the invasion. The Teen Titans (whose membership includes The New Warriors in this universe) deal with a mob of fanatics, helping snap them out of Godfrey's control. In a desperate move, he steals Dr. Fate's helmet, not realizing it contained the mind of a Lord of Order. He quickly falls into a coma.

With Darkseid's scheme exposed, the SHRA gets repealed, although the government keeps The Thunderbolts around for missions of its own.

Edited by Sijo on Nov 18th 2020 at 4:22:49 AM

The Shi'ar are an offshoot of the Thanagarians. Or maybe it's the other way around.

Charles Xavier and Niles Caulder where college mates and both studied genetics.

Xavier and Caulder had an agreement: those mutants that were too "freaky" for the public would join Caulder's Doom Patrol, while the more normal ones joined Xavier's X-men.

Another Events Combination: The First Contest of Champions and... Super Friends # 7-9?? [This is because that was the first appearance of many heroes that would later form the Global Guardians, and the purpose of C o C was to introduce more international heroes for Marvel.]

It begins with The Grandmaster challenging Death to a game: if he wins, she must bring his "brother" The Collector back to life. She accepts, and Grandmaster brings several heroes from Earth (as he is wont to do) to his space headquarters to be used as pawns.

Grandmaster explains that he and Death will choose "Champions" among them to look for the pieces of the Globe of Life, which are hidden on Earth's six continents. Whichever team finds the most pieces, will win. He warns however that a trap protects each piece. Some of the heroes protest as to why should they risk themselves over this, but Grandmaster reveals he also has hidden bombs on Earth, and if they refuse to cooperate he'll blow up the planet. Not having any choice, the heroes accept.

The American heroes quickly enroll the help of various foreign heroes to aid them while searching in their nations. There's an incident in Ireland between Jack O' Lantern [DC] and Shamrock [M] since the former is a separatist from the United Kingdom while the latter is not, but they are soon convinced to put aside their differences and work together for the greater good.

Also, the search for the piece in Australia is at first fruitless, but it is eventually found in Tasmania.

By the end, only 5 pieces are found, to the heroes' bafflement. Until someone realizes they counted Europe and Asia as two continents when they are actually one landmass. The last piece is found in Antarctica.

Grandmaster's team is declared the winner. However, Death reveals that the globe can only revive one person if another sacrifices its life. Grandmaster accepts this and, after revealing to the heroes the location of the bombs, uses the globe- and dies.

The Collector comes back to life and has to be filled in on what happened. The heroes demand to be sent home to deal with the bombs, and the Collector does so. Meanwhile, death leaves with the Globe of Life.

Sometime later, all the international heroes meet in France, where they agree to form a team of their own- The Global Guardians!

More combined events coming later. Comments/suggestions welcome.

Where does that leave Robotman? Can't call him a mutant, can you?

The Doom Patrol welcomes freaks of all kinds. The original had no mutants but later versions did. In general, DC mutants like Celsius probably joined the X-Men while freaky Marvel mutants like Nightcrawler, joined some iteration of the Patrol.

Mongul is a denizen of Mojoworld and competes with Mojo for who can garner the best ratings for their respective gladiator shows.

Mongul is a conqueror and a rival of Thanos and Darkseid [in his mind anyway- he's not as smart as either of them]. But he and Mojo probably have some deal for broadcasting rights of his gladiatorial games.

You folks are epic. I read through all 59 pages/almost 1,500 posts over the last few weeks... so many magnificent ideas here! Even the awful ones were fun to read and witness people discuss and debate. Well done, tropers

Just to see if we can spark a conversation and wake things up around here, I’ll go ahead and provide feedback on some of the best and worst ideas from the thread, according to my own humble opinions. To organize these thoughts, I’ll discuss crossover pairings between characters/franchises from each company, starting with...

SUPERMAN/FANTASTIC FOUR: I really like the idea that Superman’s debut into the public eye was saving the Fantastic Four’s original spaceship, and that this was the dawn of the modern age of superheroes. This is probably my favorite idea from the entire thread; I think it is really top notch, and bridges the two universes in a really intuitive way. An alternative idea was proposed based on real life chronology: that the Justice League debuted first, then the Fantastic Four arrived the next year, and most other heroes thereafter. I think this idea is also pretty solid, but makes more sense for a historical take: like if you want these debuts to be set in the 1960s, then have the Justice League debut in ‘60, the FF in ‘61, and so on. But if you’re going for more of a modern reimagining, then I think Superman and the Fantastic Four should be the “first” modern superheroes, in terms of the public spotlight. Presumably other heroes have been around, like Batman the urban legend of Gotham, or Wonder Woman traveling Man’s World since WWII... even Superman would have been saving the day for some time before this moment, this would just be his entrance into the mainstream public consciousness—probably thanks to an interview with Lois Lane. And thereafter would come many others following in Superman’s footsteps, a new age of caped crusaders and masked marvels... starting with the Fantastic Four.

Superman should inspire the FF to become superheroes, but he should inspire them in other ways as well. For example, Superman taking Reed Richards to explore the Fortress of Solitude and study long lost Kryptonian technology would open Reed’s mind to the limitless possibilities of science, but their conversations could lead them to understanding how dangerous this kind of stuff could be in the wrong hands. (This helps to justify why Superman and Mr. Fantastic’s utopian tech hasn’t already been used to change the planet and civilization as we know it—Reed Richards isn’t useless, he’s cautious, with more than a little streak of ubermensch mentality.) The Human Torch would worship Superman for his fame and popularity, and attempts to emulate his dashing machismo would sometimes lead Johnny into trouble. Superman and the Thing, on the other hand, might have a bit of a deeper friendship—Ben Grimm would be one of the only heroic peers who doesn’t worship Superman, and I think his gruff charm and blunt attitude would appeal to Clark’s country roots; they’d rib on each other, but underneath would be a deep sense of respect. Despite his appearance, Superman might see the Thing as the most human of all super humans. Though there might also be some envious resentment on the part of the Thing. The only relationship I can’t see too clearly is that between Superman and the Invisible Girl/Woman; what might their dynamic look like? He and Wonder Woman could give her an invisible jet as a wedding gift... that’s all I got on that so far.

The Mole Man and his Moloids should be the first major antagonist to face Superman and the FF after their debut. This is based not just on the Fantastic Four’s origin story, but also on the film “Superman and the Mole Men,” the Man of Steel’s live action debut. Taking after this film, the resolution of the conflict with the Moloids should be one of negotiation and compromise, rather than violent confrontation, setting a better precedent for the greatest heroes of this world. Lex Luthor and Doctor Doom, on the other hand, should be arc antagonists for the entire shared universe: Lex Luthor is the ultimate supervillain, while Doctor Doom is the ultimate anti-hero. I also like the idea that Luthor could be on a very long and winding path towards redemption, while Doom’s story should be the opposite, a descent into eldritch power leading him ultimately to the throne of God Emperor Doom; but he only ever wanted to save his mother, then the world, from Hell. Lex would also hold a lot of enmity for Reed as well, in competition for the title of “world’s smartest man.” Doom, on the other hand, would see Superman more as a tool, to be manipulated to Doom’s own ends. Doom’s combination of genius, affinity for the dark arts, and diplomatic immunity would mark him as one of Superman’s most dangerous foes, up there with Luthor and Brainiac. Luthor and Doom would also be archrivals to each other, natch. Their contests of ego could be the springboard for a lot of interesting stories and adventures for Superman and the FF alike.

Finally, of course it has to be that Krypton was destroyed by Galactus; this is just way too strong of a connection to pass up, and really adds another layer of depth to Galactus’ arrival on Earth, and Superman’s relationship with the World-Eater. He’d have to come to grips with the fact that Galactus is a force of nature far more powerful than himself, that some things are inevitable, that some worlds can’t be saved; then he’d have to save the world anyway, because he’s Superman. Superman couldn’t defeat Galactus, but maybe they could come to some kind of agreement or compromise. I have more thoughts on Krypton and Galactus, but I’ll save those for another post, since this one is already pretty lengthy.

(It’s worth noting that Superman doesn’t literally nom down on planets, he consumes the energy of the planet... so the explanation that kryptonite is like the irradiated cosmic crumbs of Galactus’ meal makes sense to me.)

Overall, I think that Superman and the FF should be the core foundation of their shared universe, the four cornerstone and central pillar of Earth’s superhero community. The FF could be involved in the origin stories of characters like Green Lantern and Aquaman (this is a major advantage to having the Fantastic Four debut before the Justice League), while Superman could do the same with characters like the Hulk or the Guardians of the Galaxy. And when cosmic crossovers and crises roll up, like the Secret Wars on Infinite Earths, or the Infinity Hour Saga, or whatever, then Superman and the Fantastic Four should be right at the center of them. If the whole universe were in some sense leading up to an epic grand finale involving Supes, the FF, Luthor, and Doom, that might give a sense of cohesion to the universe as a whole. A loose adaptation of Kingdom Come and Earth X, perhaps? Maybe that’s taking things a little too far, but the possibilities of such a story seem pretty epic. What I liked about comics from the ‘60s-‘90s is that there was always a sense of progression; the world kept moving, as if it was going somewhere. But they had no end in sight, which led to stories like the Death of Superman and Spider-Man’s Clone Saga... if this universe actually had a shared vision of the end, that could give all the stories a sense of weight and purpose, without needing to reboot back to default every 10 to 20 years. And to me, the very center of this grandest of narratives should be the First Family and the Man of Tomorrow.

Edited by DetectiveMarvel on Aug 31st 2021 at 11:33:23 AM

Continuing on...

BATMAN/SPIDER-MAN: So Spider-Man is a superpowered teenage orphan fighting the criminal underworld, motivated by overwhelming psychological guilt and trauma... so of course Batman would take Spider-Man under his wing, the way he did with all his Robins and Batgirls and the like. Actually, the pairing of Batman with Spider-Man makes lot more sense than Batman and Robin, aesthetically speaking; bats and spiders are both grotesque creatures of the night in the public imagination, fitting the duo’s outsider natures. But how would Batman and Spider-Man actually get along? Spider-Man is much more rebellious than your average Robin, much more playful than the Batman, and reckless to boot. So I think Spider-Man would often get on Batman’s nerves, and could never really function as a proper sidekick. Rather, Batman’s mentorship would be a little more distant, but he’d always be there when Spidey’s back was up against a wall, and I think the web-head’s quips would eventually endear a special place in Bruce’s heart (especially when his brand of witticisms royally piss off the Joker). I could also see Norman Osborn as a competitor of Bruce Wayne on the corporate level, and their competition would extend to Peter Parker, as each tries to take him on as a kind of heir to their own dark legacies. What I really wonder is how Bats and Spidey’s relationship with each other might affect the broader sphere of their worlds: would Batman still be inclined to adopt so many Robins if the role of super heroic understudy was already filled by an actual superhuman, who chose to start fighting crime all on his own? How would Robin feel about Spidey? And would Spidey still be an outcast in the early days of superheroics, or would his relationship with an original Justice Leaguer like Batman change things? I like to imagine Peter getting kicked out of the Teen Titans, like how he was rejected from the Fantastic Four and Avengers in the original Marvel universe. Enmity with Robin/Nightwing perhaps? Would Batman and Spider-Man go on “double dates” with Catwoman and Black Cat? I do really like the idea that Selina Kyle mentored Felicia Hardy, and this could play nicely into the dynamics of Peter and Bruce. And by “double date,” I do mean coordinated heist hijinks, of course.

SUPERMAN/HULK: Early on, someone proposed that the Hulk should be introduced as an anti-heroic rogue of Superman; this is an excellent idea. I think Dr. Bruce Banner should have been attempting to recreate the Superman using gamma radiation, and accidentally turned himself into the Hulk. Superman and the Hulk face each other, but the Hulk just keeps getting angrier and angrier. Eventually Superman figures out that the confrontation has been engineered and egged on by Lex Luthor and General “Thunderbolt” Ross, and at the same time comes to see that despite destroying an entire city, the Hulk has not harmed a single innocent. Clark realizes that the super-genius intellect of Dr. Banner must be in there somewhere, acting subconsciously; and since the Hulk just wants to be left alone, Superman lets him go. This serves as a precedent to the super heroic community of Earth, and legitimizes Hulk as a troubled antihero rather than a mere monster. Superman would then go about trying to make friends with the Hulk, who would still hold a grudge over their initial confrontation. Metallo also seems like a military project that could’ve been concocted under General Ross, with his Kryptonite heart... in fact, perhaps Dr. Banner’s original experimentation could use the gamma radiation of Kryptonite, further interweaving the mythos of the Earth’s strongest dudes.

WONDER WOMAN/CAPTAIN AMERICA: I am not a fan of the idea that Wonder Woman is Captain America’s long lost daughter; I think it displaces a lot of other interesting characters, like Peggy and Sharon Carter, and just generally feels a bit contrived. Not to mention that creepy incest undertones could come up very easily, as has already been suggested in this thread. The idea was soundly rejected then, but what are the chances that other writers would eventually take up that uncomfortable and unnecessary flame? It’s just... weird. Plus, making Wonder Woman the secret daughter of Cap kind of invalidates her feminist origins as a woman made by women to save the world of men. If she has to have a father, I’d much prefer it be Zeus or Hercules than Cap.

Nonetheless, the World War II connection between Wonder Woman and Captain America is excellent, and a lot of the ideas proposed around it are very good. Having Steve Rogers replace Steve Trevor as the pilot who crash lands on Themyscira makes a lot of sense, introducing Diana to the opposite sex... but you could also have Diana meet Cap in the war effort instead. Steve Trevor could perhaps be Steve Rogers’ illegitimate half-brother? In any case, having Wonder Woman’s costume and color scheme be fashioned off of Captain America’s makes too much sense not to use. Since Diana is immortal, I prefer to have her fighting alongside Cap in WWII, rather than her mother... then when Steve Rogers gets lost at the end of the war, Diana goes on to wander the world for the next century, carrying on his heroic ideals of justice and truth. That way, when Cap finally returns in the modern day, it’ll be a real reunion between old friends, something really special. Their continuing friendship will also be quite entertaining, as Diana teaches Steve about the modern world through the eyes of an immortal Amazon. Also note that HYDRA is named after a creature from Greek mythology... so it seems like Cap and Wonder Woman must battle an actual hydra at some point. That’s just too good not to use.

SPIDER-MAN/FLASH: An idea was briefly mentioned that Peter Parker and Barry Allen should be friends, but was never really expanded upon. I think this is a pretty good idea, and makes a lot of sense: both of their superpowers come from experimental accidents, and in other media their origins are often tied to their nemeses, like Spider-Man and Doc Ock getting their powers from the same accident in the 90s comic relaunch, or Flash’s origins being tied in with time-traveling Professor Zoom/Reverse Flash. Generally speaking I think these two characters make the most sense to explore the world of metahumans, and what the world looks like when suddenly lots of people start getting superpowers—but only a small minority actually use them responsibly. There’s also a level of compassion that Barry extends to his rogues, which I think Peter could learn from (and maybe even rub off on Batman, leading to the fan-beloved Bt AS characterization). Finally, both Flash’s and Spider-Man’s rogues galleries seem like they could easily cross over with each others’ heroes: I can definitely see Spider-Man facing off against Captain Cold, or Flash taking on the Sinister Six. These villains will ultimately lead both Peter and Barry to a lot of personal tragedy, and the deaths of loved ones... maybe they can cry on each other’s shoulders when that time comes.

FANTASTIC FOUR/GREEN LANTERN: As previously mentioned, I believe the Fantastic Four could play an interesting role in Green Lantern’s origin story, specifically the Hal Jordan incarnation. My pitch draws heavily from the Green Lantern: Earth One take on the character. Hal Jordan is an astronaut on a mission to Jupiter, working alongside the Fantastic Four (whose developments in tech have led to massive advances in space travel into the solar system). But Latverian sabotage leads the mission to go awry, and Hal Jordan is abandoned on one of Jupiter’s moons. There, Hal receives his power ring from Abin Sur/Alan Scott/whoever, the previous Green Lantern who’s been keeping a mysterious threat on that moon from attacking Earth for decades... a reawakened colony of White Martians! At the same time, the FF are leading a rescue mission to save Hal, and in the process open their eyes to the wider galaxy; the White Martians are definitive proof that we’re not alone in the solar system, let alone in the universe. After resolving the threat of the Martians, the FF head back to Earth with their new scientific data, while Hal Jordan takes to the stars to seek out the mysterious “Green Lantern Corps” that he’s now become a part of, and learn the true nature of his powers. From that point forward, GL and the FF could crossover frequently within the cosmic landscape. Most FF villains make sense as GL villains, and vice versa. And establishing Hal’s friendship with the FF early on will keep him grounded in his humanity, even as he drifts into the depths of the cosmos, meets Sinestro and the Guardians of the Universe, and so on. Also, a connection between the Watchers and the Guardians definitely makes sense as well, as has been proposed previously in this thread. But reconciling cosmic histories can get pretty convoluted pretty fast, so I’ll leave that alone for now.

AQUAMAN/ANT-MAN & THE WASP: They both talk to animals, right? Okay, there’s a little more to it than that: both franchises fluctuate wildly between comic relief and the darkest depths of drama, such as the murder of Aquaman’s son and his divorce from Mera, or Ant-Man and the Wasp’s struggles with mental health and domestic abuse. This is a strange dichotomy for characters to fall into, so I’m interested in how they might view each other and their struggles. Also, a Silver Age style story where Ant-Man and the Wasp recruit Aquaman to shrink down and save Superman from Kryptonite poisoning—journey into the body style—seems too good to pass up. Can you imagine a microscopic Aquaman interacting with the alien bacteria of Superman’s body? That just seems like so much fun.

WONDER WOMAN/THOR: This is one of the more natural and intuitive connections between both companies, and I’m a little surprised it hasn’t been discussed in greater depth; but the discussion that was had is valuable regardless. Thor and Wonder Woman each embody the mythic dimensions of their universes, immortal mascots for the comic book interpretation of ancient myth and legend. I think Thor and Diana’s relationship should extend back into history as well. Just because WWII was Diana’s introduction to Man’s World doesn’t mean she never went anywhere else before that. I imagine that in her immortal lifespan, Hippolyta would have taken Di to other kingdoms like Mt. Olympia and Asgard. There she met Thor Odinson, who in his arrogance has been attempting to woo Diana for hundreds or even thousands of years—theirs is an immortal romance, and Diana is Thor’s “one that got away.” This introduces an interesting dynamic between Thor, Wonder Woman, and Cap as time-displaced love interests, as well as complicating Diana’s wonderment with the world of men: she’s not fascinated that there are people with different genitalia than her own all around her, she’s experienced that before—but rather that these people (male and female alike) are living mortal lives, doomed to die in a century or less, but chasing their dreams nonetheless. Will Thor ever win Diana’s heart? Only time will tell. Wonder Woman and Thor’s rogues also make excellent crossover villains: as has been previously suggested, Loki as the God of Mischief and Lies is a perfect nemesis for Diana and her lasso of truth. Other villains like Circe, the Enchantress & Executioner, and other mythological beings suit both heroes, while certain shared characters—like Ares and Hercules—make the most sense as antagonistic anti-heroes and rivals to Thor and Diana. Canonically Wonder Woman has also wielded Mjolnir, so that seems like a plot thread worth further exploring... why would Mjolnir ever choose Jane Foster or Eric Masterson when it could instead choose Diana of Themyscira?

BATMAN/IRON MAN: These characters make very natural foils for each other. As has been suggested previously, Stark Industries and Wayne Enterprises should absolutely be corporate rivals; I would especially be interested in seeing them compete in areas like controlling the criminal black arms market, or wrestling with the interests of Lex Corp. Even more interesting than the dynamics between Wayne’s company and Stark’s company are the dynamics between Wayne and Stark themselves. While Bruce puts on the facade of a playboy billionaire, drowning in his own ego and booze and women... that’s who Tony really is. This would lead to a lot of tension between Batman and Iron Man, both in and out of their suits. They really would not like each other, and I could see their relationship pushing Bruce farther from affiliation with the US government, until someday down the line he more closely resembles his DKR counterpart, and Tony comes after him. Batman would definitely be on Cap’s side of the Superhuman Registration Act. This could also be foreshadowed with consistent tension between Batman and SHIELD, who do not trust each other, and both have plans to take each other down (as well as the other Supes of the world). But the difference between them is that SHIELD has no anti-SHIELD contingency plan, while Batman does have an anti-Batman plan—he’s got a plan for everything. Also, Ra’s al Ghul and the Mandarin seem like natural co-conspirators, who may have had or will have a falling out that will turn the Ten Rings against the League of Shadows. But will Talia pick Bruce or Tony in this universe? Well, she’ll pick Bruce of course; but how will she use Tony in the meantime?

(Also also, Tony’s arc reactor heart should be powered by Kryptonite. Read this idea early on, and I think it is excellent.)

SUPERMAN/SPIDER-MAN: This is a relationship a lot of people have talked about, but I think it needs to be handled quite carefully. Spider-Man should not be Superman’s sidekick; the genesis behind the idea of Spider-Man was that a teenage superhero need not be a sidekick to a more popular adult superhero. Playing the role of Superman’s sidekick de-legitimizes Spider-Man as his own hero, as a tragic loner, and so on. How could Gwen Stacy ever die if Superman had Spidey’s back? I think Spider-Man should seriously admire Superman, but also be quite jealous of his popularity, and act spazzy around his hero, which would often rub Supes the wrong way. So they wouldn’t really like fighting crime together, because it’s annoying for Superman and embarrassing for Spidey. I think Superman would care for the Webhead though, and try to help him out where he could; it’s just that Spidey’s self-destructive nature would usually shine through. One way I think Superman might help Spider-Man is actually as Clark Kent and Peter Parker. Both are journalists, but with Clark working for the reputable Daily Planet, while Peter slings muck for the Daily Bugle. When Clark meets Peter, he’s disgusted that someone who claims to support superheroes could contribute to the defamation of masked vigilantes like Spider-Man. But Peter needs the money to take care of his ailing Aunt May. Then when Superman meets Spider-Man and sees Peter through the mask, he realizes just how self-sacrificing the poor lad is. Clark might then help Peter get a job at the Daily Planet, and move him and his aunt out of the slums of Gotham and into Metropolis, the City of Tomorrow. I do like the idea of Peter and Clark going on assignments together as reporter and photographer, and I think Pete would get along well with the cast of the Planet, like Perry White and Jimmy Olsen. But what will JJJ do without him?? He’ll probably hire Eddie Brock...

FANTASTIC FOUR/FLASH: This pairing was suggested as a logical crossover, and it makes sense to me. Specifically, these characters feel like the natural cast to introduce and explore the concept of time travel in their shared universe. Victor von Doom and Barry Allen both have mothers they want to rescue from untimely fates, so they could pretty naturally get wrapped up into complex time capers—and if the Flash and the FF are bopping around in time, they could witness important historical events in-universe, like the duel between the Sub-Mariner and the original Human Torch in 1930s New York, or the escapades of the forgotten Flash, Jay Garrick. Outside of time travel stories, the less cosmic FF villains also feel like they could slot right into Flash’s rogues gallery, guys like Puppet Master and Diablo. And since we’ve established that Flash and Spider-Man are friends, we can throw Johnny Storm in to make them a trio, in honor of Spidey’s close friendship with the Human Torch in canon. Finally worth noting, as has been brought up previously, the debut issue of Fantastic Four places their initial test flight in one Central City, which is typically Barry Allen’s home turf; make of that what you will.

Edited by DetectiveMarvel on Sep 11th 2021 at 11:30:22 AM

I’m just going to keep posting these here until I run out of ideas to discuss, as I believe they could be valuable brainstorming material for some aspiring creator down the line, as this thread thus far has been valuable to me. So without further ado...

JUSTICE LEAGUE/AVENGERS: One of the most discussed topic on this thread has been whether the Justice League and the Avengers should be separate teams or not. I side with keeping them as separate teams, and abandoning the whole “Justice Initiative” monicker. The rank and chapter system someone proposed much earlier is quite cool, but I think it organizes the heroes too much, and no longer feels like the Marvel or DC universes. Instead, I would suggest that the Justice League formed to face an otherworldly invasion too immense for Superman to take on alone (like Starro, or perhaps Galactus?), then stayed together and operated for some time. But eventually the Justice League apparently fell in battle, and a new group of heroes came together to avenge their fallen idols—hence their name, the Avengers. However this all turns out to have been a trick played by Loki (or perhaps Mxyzptlk disguised as Loki), and the original Justice League are still alive, but under mind control by the villain. After the Avengers break the Justice League free, they together save the day, and the League offers the Avengers membership; the Avengers decline, believing they can accomplish more good by staying separate from the spotlight that the Justice League occupies. So while the Justice League takes on global threats like White Martians or Brainiac, the Avengers remain a little more discreet and get their hands a little dirtier on a national and international level. I do like the idea that the Avengers are more affiliated with the US government than the League; perhaps they were originally recruited by Nick Fury as part of a SHIELD contingency plan in case the League ever faltered. The Avengers and the League should nonetheless team up frequently, maybe having annual crossovers like the JLA and JSA once did.

The main question, to me, is who would form the initial roster of each team? On the one hand, it makes sense to keep them as they debuted in the comics: the Justice League consists of the Big Seven, while the Avengers are made up of Iron Man, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Thor, the Hulk (sometimes), and led by Captain America. On the other hand, those two rosters could be combined to make an original membership for the Justice League consisting of 13 heroes:

1. Superman 2. Captain America 3. Batman 4. Iron Man 5. Wonder Woman 6. Thor 7. Aquaman 8. Ant-Man 9. The Flash 10. The Wasp 11. Green Lantern 12. The Hulk 13. The Martian Manhunter

This feels pretty epic, and intercoalitional between the two universes, representing the Earth’s mightiest heroes without copyright restrictions. In this case, the Avengers could instead be made up of heroes like Green Arrow and/or Hawkeye and/or Black Canary and/or Black Widow, and other JLA/Avengers second stringers. I’m really quite conflicted on this, and don’t know which way feels truer to the shared universe.

Either way though, when Superman finally meets Captain America, Supes should thank Cap for inspiring him to become the man he is today, and Cap should thank Supes for inspiring a whole new generation of heroes to keep the dream alive: truth, justice, and the American way. And the Teen Titans could be made up of youngsters from both universes: the Human Torch, Robin, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash, Aqualad, Iceman perhaps, and Spider-Man (but he gets kicked out after the first mission for not being a team player).

ANT-MAN & THE WASP/PLASTIC MAN: Here we’ve got the theme of former criminals becoming absurdist superheroes in the likes of Patrick “Eel” O’Brien and Scott Lang. I smell a superhero heist story... just imagine what kind of mischief they could get up to with their unusual powers: Plastic Man impersonating someone like Egghead or MODOK so they can break into AIM headquarters, or Ant-Man sneaking around the traps of the Toyman and the Prankster. And I can definitely see Eel O’Brien macking on Janet van Dyne, much to Hank Pym’s consternation. Another curiosity of these characters is just how many other superheroes share their same idiosyncratic powers: for Plastic Man there’s Mr. Fantastic, Elasti-Girl/Woman, Elongated Man & Woman, and eventually Kamala Khan; while Ant-Man & the Wasp share their powers with the various incarnations of the Atom, and Doll Man & Doll Girl. Why are these particular power sets so relatively common in the metahuman population of Earth? That question could be explored in a crossover like this.

CAPTAIN AMERICA/JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA: A lot of really cool ideas have been suggested surrounding the Golden Age, developed largely by k2ho3. Most of the characters they incorporated are a bit beyond my grasp of comic book history, so I can’t really give any meaningful critique of that premise, beyond admiration; nor can I say much on the storyline, which is quite complexly detailed as well, involving time travel and multiple different alternate and rewritten realities. The only criticism I really have with k2ho3’s pitch is the name “Invaders for Justice,” which I find absolutely atrocious. I much prefer simply sticking with the Justice Society of America. Other than that though, the ideas are quite cool and deserve being written out into a proper fanfic. Instead of going further into that, I’ll just focus on the broad strokes of how to fit the JSA into the history of a shared universe.

I would suggest combining all WWII superhero teams (All-Star Squadron, All-Winners Squad, etc.) into a singular Justice Society of America, whose membership includes: Captain America & Bucky, the original Human Torch & Toro, the Sub-Mariner, Doctor Fate, Hour-Man, the Spectre, the Sandman, the Atom, Hawkman, the Whizzer, and Miss America. Captain America is their leader, and they are mostly active in the warfront of the European theatre, rather than fighting crime in the USA. I would suggest that Wonder Woman should not be a member of the society, nor the original Green Lantern or Flash, whose roles are all filled by other members (if Diana were to join, it could be as Miss America—this is a somewhat fun idea, but I prefer to keep Diana as a free agent in the war, and unaffiliated with a team until the formation of the Justice League). When Cap and Bucky disappeared at the end of the war, the rest of the JSA returned to America as war heroes... but the nation was sick of war, and the falling out between Namor and the other members—leading to his catastrophic duel over New York City with the Human Torch—didn’t help matters. The world was turning against masked vigilantes, and HUAC sealed the deal: the last active members of the Society were forced into retirement, and the world went without public superheroes until the debut of Superman and the Fantastic Four in the modern day. When Captain America awakens and discovers this history, he is distraught—how could the country turn against their own protectors? But when a conspiracy involving 12 PO Ws from WWII being activated as superhuman sleeper agent bombs emerges, Cap must reassemble the old guard to solve the mystery of “the Twelve” and save America once more... after this happens, the JSA will stay together to help train the next generation of superheroes, barring members like the Human Torch (missing), the Sub-Mariner (renegade), and Cap (already committed to leading the Justice League and/or the Avengers). These plot lines of forgotten Nazi and Cold War conspiracies could also lead Cap to rediscovering Bucky as the Winter Soldier, and all that follows from there.

HULK/MARTIAN MANHUNTER: These two should be friends. They’re both green-skinned outsiders often hunted by the government and alienated even from their own fellow superheroes... I think the Hulk would break MM out of governmental captivity whenever he gets captured, and vice versa. Also, J’onzz’s psychic powers could be used to calm the Hulk down, and help Banner explore the depths of his own troubled mind. I just really think they’d get along, and understand each other better than anyone else understands them. Amanda Waller would make a great antagonists for both Martian Manhunter and the Hulk, and a foil for Nick Fury, trying to use the outcast heroes against their will to her own governmental agenda. After Hulk and MM bust up enough government facilities, Fury might introduce Waller to his own black ops meta project, Taskforce X...

KRYPTON & GALACTUS: So several histories of Krypton and its apocalypse have been proposed on this thread, not all of them mutually compatible with one another. Here I’ve synthesized all my favorite ideas into a single cohesive and complimentary narrative on Krypton and its relationship with the greater shared universe, leading ultimately to its destruction at the hands of Galactus.

Eons ago, the Celestials seeded the metahuman gene into life across the universe, to their own mysterious ends. Exposure to certain conditions would transform these early life forms into Eternals, the proto-superheroes of the ancient cosmos. Scientists on Krypton discovered a way to induce this transformation using eugenics and a primordial form of Kryptonite, essentially transforming their planet into a civilization of Eternals. When explorers from Maltus discovered the utopian world of Krypton, they shared their space-faring technology with them, so that the Kryptonians could bring their civilization to the stars.

Following this model, the Kryptonians raised many of the species they encountered from relative primitivism, desiring to share their utopian vision of the future. This was the genesis of many different species including Shi’ar and Thanagarians, Skrulls and Kree, Rannians and Xandarians, and so forth. As they ventured forth into the stars, many of these other races sought conquest rather than cooperation, and great intergalactic wars began. They followed the model of the Maltusians and Kryptonians in exploiting the meta-gene, but used their newly made Eternal populations as soldiers. Their battles were of the magnitude of gods, as Eternals fought Eternals, and the fabric of space time itself was nearly torn to shreds. The Maltusians intervened, launching the Green Lantern Corps from Oa to force the various alien races into peace. The Maltusians of Oa renames themselves the Guardians of the Universe, while those who had initially intervened on Krypton were exiled to become the Watchers, forbidden from ever intervening in galactic history again. As for the Kryptonians, they went into self-imposed isolation as an act of penance for their accidental crimes; using Maltusian technology, the Kryptonians transformed their star Rao from yellow to red, reverting them from their Eternal state, and the idea of space travel and exploration became culturally taboo. So the Kryptonians lived for countless years, but they never forgot the tragedy their hubris had brought to the cosmos, and the great taboo remained. No Kryptonian was to leave Krypton ever again; this was their oath.

Then came Galactus. Having studied the secrets of the cosmos through illicit communications with alien scientists like Norrin Radd, the Kryptonian scientists Jor-El and Lara discovered that their planet was bound to be consumed by the World-Eater. They pled with the Council of Krypton to evacuate the planet, but their reason was denied; the taboo was too great, and Galactus was believed to be nothing but an ancient myth. Lara and Jor-El’s life’s work led only to an uprising by the militant General Zod, who was banished to the Phantom Zone alongside his followers for his arrogance. Lara and Jor-El were shamed for inspiring this rebellion, and cast from the public eye. In private, they created a space shuttle for their son Kal-El, sending him to a distant planet with a yellow sun, where his Eternal nature could be awakened and he might lead those people to glory... Jor-El and Lara remained behind, hoping they could use their extensive knowledge to face Galactus and save their home world. But when that fateful day came, the scientists failed, and Krypton was consumed by the great hunger of Galactus. The proto-Kryptonite that had once turned Kryptonians into a race of Eternals was poisoned and flung into the cosmos, and Galactus continued on his endless quest... but the Last Son of Krypton remained, a baby in a rocket ship, bound to face Galactus again one day, when he came upon the child’s new Earth many years later. This would be Superman’s greatest trial, and one of his great life’s works.

Discovering this history, Superman becomes dedicated to curing the hunger of Galactus. Though Supes and the FF were able to save the Earth from Galactus, the World-Eater’s endless journey continues elsewhere, leading him places like the homeworld of the Skrulls (which is a bit of poetic justice, since the Skrulls knew that Galactus was headed towards Krypton, but refused to inform Krypton’s ruling Council out of ancestral spite). Superman believes there must be a way to save the many worlds bound for destruction at Galactus’ hands, and to save Galactus himself from his great hunger. This will lead Superman to diving deeper and deeper into the history of the cosmos and the greater mysteries of the universe, studying under beings like Uatu the Watcher, the Silver Surfer, and even the exiled Maltusian Krona, lost in hypertime. Through these studies, Supes learns that Galactus holds an important place in the cosmic landscape, and the delicate balance of the Celestial structures of space and time... but Superman will never give up trying to save all worlds, and I see this as one of his greatest missions in life.

Edited by DetectiveMarvel on Sep 11th 2021 at 1:53:07 AM

One problem I have with the whole "Galactus ate Krypton" idea is that the planet very clearly exploded in such a way as to produce Kryptonite; that's never been the result of Galactus' feedings, he sucks up all life-sustaining matter leaving broken husks behind. But there is a way to connect the planet's destruction to Marvel. If we say that the planet was colonized by refugees from the Kree Empire (this explains the resemblances between the two cultures) then the origin in which the explosion was caused by a bomb planted long ago, could have been the work of Skrulls, who might have feared that Kryptonians would rejoin the Kree-Skrull war one day.

Sijo, it’s good to see you here! I’ve really enjoyed your contributions to the thread, especially your relatively recent Event Crossover pitches. You’ve been with this shared universe discussion for a long time, so it’s cool to see the old guard still around.

I can see where your objection to the “Galactus ate Krypton” premise comes from, and the Skrull Bomb idea has some merit. But I still prefer Galactus eating Krypton; to me, the pathos of Superman’s character when Galactus comes to Earth is so much more then, and it really sets up the cosmic interplay between the apocalyptic World-Eater and the messianic Last Son of Krypton in a profound way. My objection to the Skrull Bomb idea is that, if Skrulls can make planet-destroying bombs, then what makes Galactus such a big deal? It seems to me like he should be the main planet-destroyer in the cosmos. I do like the idea that the Skrulls are nonetheless partially responsible for Krypton’s destruction, it fits their cultural character well, which is why I incorporated that into my pitch above. I also absolutely adore the connections between the Kree and Kryptonians that you suggested earlier—a world of Kree Eternals is a super cool idea. So I incorporated that idea as well, though I had the Kryptonians as the progenitors of the Kree, rather than the other way around. I just really want the Kryptonians to have a pivotal role in cosmic history, alongside the Celestials and the Guardians of the Universe and the Watchers, and so on. They’re so important in the history of comics, it feels like their role in the shared universe should be impactful as well. But I think the Kree-Krypton connection works well either way. I also feel that by making Galactus the source of Krypton’s destruction, it helps justify why Jor-El and Lara sent their son away, but stayed behind on Krypton themselves; to try to avert its destruction as Galactus’ hands, even if they ultimately failed. This makes a lot more sense to me than that they just miscalculated and didn’t build the rocket big enough for all three of them.

Regarding Kryptonite: to me, it does not seem unbelievable that the barren husk Galactus leaves behind could be irradiated, and that some chunks of it could’ve broken off and been cast into space during the consumption process. So the shell of Krypton would remain as an irradiated ghost circling Rao, while some Kryptonite would still be floating through the cosmos, drifting towards Earth and other planets. This also creates a pretty cool setting if Superman ever returns to Rao and his deadly homeworld. If one does go with Galactus as the source of Krypton’s apocalypse, I do wonder how other characters and concepts like Supergirl, Kandor, Brainiac, and Doomsday would fit into the narrative. I did give a role to General Zod in my pitch above, but these others I have yet to place.