@AFP:

That acronym definitely works - I was thinking of something similar to what Madrugada posted (High speed Operations Powered flight armour), but I think yours works better.

Also, I fully expect your characters to groan as loudly as possible if/when they figure out the pun.

@Taira:

I'm looking forward to it! Hopefully you'll have more success than I'm having.

@fulltime D:

I'll keep that in mind. Are there any other works that have good examples of sci-fi tactics? Obviously I'm looking to create something that's at least fairly original, but it's good to have references for the good, the bad and the ugly (and I'm sure that it'll be helpful to the others).

In my case, I'll again admit that my setting isn't the hardest, especially when it comes to matters involving space (FTL anyone?) and certain other aspects*

. I guess what I'm looking for is something that's plausible/decently realistic if not necessarily entirely so*

Though where it's "harmless" to telling the story - or if I'm knowledgeable about it, such as military stuff - I do try to make sure that it's 100% realistic. I dislike it intensely when someone hasn't done the research.

. Ideally I'd like interstellar combat to occur at all ranges, though justifying that would be difficult. As it is elsewhere, the Confederacy prefers to use exotic/energy weapons, the Coalition uses energy/some kinetic weapons, and the Union mostly*

They do have energy weapons and more exotic munitions, it's just that the main armament is kinetic.

kinetic armaments.

Locking you up on radar since '09

Maybe, although playing 'Nelson at Trafalgar' (yes, I know that's not the exact tactics they used in trying to regain the station, but seriously, it's that, or Salamis) with fleets of dreadnoughts is at best tactically debatable.

Look to the classics. Starship Troopers put a lot of thought into how warfare in the future works (it's not for nothing that it is considered the Trope Codifier for Power Armor and Space Marines), with a Watsonian narrator explaining things as if he were talking to a fellow living in the same general setting (he declines to explain how the Marauder armor works, because obviously you know that stuff already since you watch the news).

But yeah, he glosses over stuff that a paratrooper wouldn't be expected to know, such as naval tactics (in general terms, it's missiles and energy beams between ships at considerable distance), and goes more into the organization of a Mobile Infantry battallion, and how it's very rare for such a unit to operate as a unified singular fighting force. Instead the infantry units are broken up piecemeal down to the company level, operating jointly as an organic element aboard individual naval vessels (the Fleet is implied to operate along similar lines, with each Captain the final authority for any decisions requiring a short command loop). It's considered a pretty big fucking deal if two or more ships link up to hit the same objective, and as I recall, the final campaign in the book involves a significant task force of the Fleet coming together to hit the same rock.

The chain of command exists, but due to the distances involved, any particulars are decided at the lower levels, with lots of folks filling multiple organizational roles (Rico's company commander is described as wearing two or five different "hats" aboard the ship, and many of the troopers have duties aboard ship to involve some minor maintenance and a lot of keeping things clean so the Fleet personnel can deal with the more involved stuff).

As for troop deployments, It's Raining Men, with combat drops involving troopers being launched from ships in orbit like torpedoes (fired backwards, resulting in the Drop Pod being slow enough to drop like the rock it is instead of orbiting), the pods themselves spewing all sorts of ECM and decoys, the Fleet ship no doubt also doing it's best to hinder Anti-Air efforts to intercept the troopers, and more than a few of the troopers being swatted before they can hit the ground. The pod itself disintegrates to form one last bit of chaff with the trooper parachuting and using his jetpack to finish the the trip to the ground.

And then in the lead-up to the final climactic engagement of the book, Rico ends up taking a shuttle to the ground in the second wave anyways.

edited 28th Aug '13 1:26:36 PM by AFP

Babylon Five did space combat right in that many battles happened at long rangers. I'm a PATRIOT missile soldier in my day job. Iz boring 90% of the time. When Bombers on the Screen happens it's mostly symbols on a 'scope. Until they are confirmed hostile and you're given the orders to engange. To an observer it's confusing symbols, to a 14E there are many a Bring My Brown Pants moments as the targets gets past 100 km.

Star Trek was bad at not considering the 3rd dimension. The Babylon5 ep "Into the Fire" did show 3d battles and the Star Trek TOS ep "The Ultimate Computer" had implied 3d starship dogfighting.

edited 28th Aug '13 1:43:17 PM by TairaMai

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

When considering sci-fi tactics, it's generally best to steer clear of TV shows and movies (sure there are exception, but they're just that, exceptions) because they have to look cool, and when SFX meets realism, it's usually realism that forced to yield.

edited 28th Aug '13 1:55:26 PM by MattII

Yeah, even B5 had to play it soft for a lot of the space battles, due to the simple restriction that television is a visual medium, meaning that Show, Don't Tell is in full effect (excessive exposition notwithstanding). A few battles (particularly the Narn vs Shadows in "The Long Twilight Struggle") played up the distance (the two opposing fleets' capital ships never appear in frame together until the very end of the battle, with each exchange of fire involving long panning shots across the battlefield), but for the most part you had huge lumbering destroyers slugging it out in knife fights with high-yield energy weapons and unusually effective Point Defense systems (the show is famous for kicking Point Defenseless right in the ghoulies).

I recall one awkward battle, in "And Now For A Word", between two cruisers which appeared to be about a kilometer away from each other, giving off an admirable demonstration of A-Team Firing. Officially, this was due to both ships employing electronic countermeasures to mess with each others' firing solutions, but still, basically a point-blank fight where nobody was getting hurt until the end. It's no small wonder that the Earthforce personnel were so distressed about this happening anywhere near their 5 mile long space station, neutrality concerns aside.

Hello, Matt, and welcome to the thread!

I was pretty much prepared to take anything with a pinch of salt, since I already know how much can be gotten wrong by fiction*

.

Starship Troopers is one I've heard many good things about, so if I can I'll definitely give it a look (and it sounds like it would be particularly relevant in my case).

Locking you up on radar since '09

You could also try The Forever War if you can get your hands on it. It's still told from an (conscripted this time) infantryman's Po V, but involves more naval theory than Starship Troopers, which tends to treat the navy as glorified transports.

Alright, thanks! That one sounds like another good novel to check out, especially since the naval side of things is something I'm struggling to make realistic in the context of what I want to achieve and in the setting itself.

Though I might be being hopelessly vague here, do you have any general (or specific!) pointers as to how military thinking might evolve in the far future? Of course, this might be the equivalent of asking someone to read tea leaves, but every little bit helps.

Locking you up on radar since '09

They also manage to fit in some medieval warfare in their last mission, due to special circumstance.

As for how I see war evolving, greater emphasis on individual safety, more drones, fewer front-line troops. A greater emphasis on cyber-warfare too, with wars fought as much through code as through bullets (cyber-warfare could allow an enemy to cripple a nation, without actually touching it).

edited 30th Aug '13 3:12:04 AM by MattII

Cyberwarefare, not so much.

Today states already pay for criminal hackers to spy on and cripple infrastructure of their rivals. But in the future it won't be peaceful. Taking out a movie studio website is one thing, shutting off power or crippling factories and that's an act of war. Expect to see it used as a casus belli.

There will always be a need for the soldier to go into a location and clear everything out. However there will be drones, robots and other machines to help her out before she gets there. Some drones will even be autonomous. "Plug and Fight" will happen: units will be able to join the battle and have more information filling them in. ECM will step up it's game as always however.

Many nations will sponsor "insurgent" groups and other irregulars. Better to bleed the enemy before the fight.

Railguns will be a thing, lasers not so much.

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

^ Lasers are operational. Railguns not quite.

The future is nigh.

Yes, and when you're at war already (which is what we're talking about) WTF does it matter?

Really? I think the folks at Foster-Miller would beg to disagree.

And fostering insurgency isn't going to be a casus belli?

There will always be a need for troops to occupy territory. Robots and such will be fighting alongside troops in going to places too dangerous.

"Cyberwarfare" isn't gonna be as big as portrayed in fiction. There have been malware (see Suxtnet) that has done damage, but sooner or latter a bomb down the vent hole is better.

Insurgent groups will be cause for war as countries are caught supporting them. Hence many "non-state" actors using front groups and money laundering to get cash.

edited 30th Aug '13 3:09:51 PM by TairaMai

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

Thanks for the input!

The commentary about insurgencies is actually rather interesting, since in my setting one of the Confederacy's time honoured strategies is to support insurgencies and local revolutionaries (usually via a lot of proxies and in a strictly deniable fashion) to do things like install sympathetic governments, let them gain access to a system, and so on. Of course, if things aren't going well, they're willing to cut ties with the insurgency (or insurgencies) in question and pretend that nothing ever happened.

Locking you up on radar since '09

Regarding the Talon, Wiki says the operator can be up to a kilometer away. On a modern battlefield, that means the operator still has to be on the actual battlefield to control such a robot, though I suppose you could use relays via a drone flying overwatch. Still, that's just one more vulnerable link in your control chain that the enemy could break. More likely these guys would be used to scout ahead and look around corners, with the controller being camped inside of a vehicle following.

I did see a magazine article about what was basically a small, unmanned recon tank. Much smaller due to not needing a crew compartment, and pretty speedy, the idea was for these things to roll ahead of convoys to scout out possible IE Ds or ambushes before the actual manned convoy followed up behind. The fact that there was no crew to protect also cut armor requirements down quite a bit (combination of smaller vulnerable area to protect and no need to worry about injured/dead crew if you wanted to skimp further on armor)

Better yet, EMP. You can make those from conventional means. (If you believe Iraqi reports from 1991 allegedly the US Air Force used EMP bombs.) EMP would destroy depending on its scale and power every (non-hardened) electronic in a single building, an entire installation or even an entire country. Sure it would suck to be the guy with a pacemaker caught in such a strike but the EMP would produce minimal if any collateral damage.

And when you need a bomb the size of a nuke to disable a city you run into real trouble internationally.

Oh sure, but TALON is a modern system what the range is going to be by the time we have interplanetary or interstellar warfare.

Check out the BLU-114/B, takes out mains systems without touching anything else.

RE Talon: you can hack or jam a robot, given enough time or effort. You can't hack a soldier.

Plus you're always going to need somebody on the ground who can think. Robots can't do that. And A.I.s have better things to be doing than acting as infantry.

Depends on how they're controlled, if they're wire-controlled, no they can;t be hacked or jammed, but the wire can be broken. Alternatively, it would not we impossible to have a drone overhead with anti-radiation missiles, and looking for anything not transmitting the correct IFF signature. There's also the possibility of fitting grenades to a robot so it can blow its surroundings up when it gets jammed. Hells, if robots can be made cheap enough you could probably make mobile bombs, nothing more sophisticated than some motors, cheap cameras and a big shrapnel charge.

That's why drones have operators.

Like what?

AI's can operate drones, jammers, plan strategy, manage logistics. "Simple" AI's could be the brains of the Mecha-Mooks, guided by a "boss" AI. The "grunts" would have to be smart enough that when their command signal is jammed they don't just sit there. Repair depots could be staffed with AI and human mechanics.

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

Here's a look at some sci-fi villains and how they fight:

“In a galaxy, where the United Earth Government has fought a civil war, losing several worlds to the Southern Cross and had a war with the Alien Cay Union, hope rides in a ship called Victory ” *cue theme music*

The Cay Union

The Cay are Humanoid Aliens and Heavyworlders,the descendants of a pangolin/porcupine-esque mammaliod. Those raised on the homeworld are shorter than the human norm, those raised in space or on lower gravity colony worlds are as tall as the average human. Their homeworld was a death world, poisonous plants, and fierce predators. They have a high tolerance for certain poisons due to the plants of their homeworld. In fact their natural skin oils can cause a human to break out in hives if he or she touches a Cay. Their rough world led to a focus on fighting for resources. Their are social creatures. Unlike the other species humans have encountered, they quickly establish who's boss. They crave order. Klingon Promotion is a common theme in their culture. As they expanded, those Cay further from Homeworld became more liberal. Contact with other races cause those Cay living abroad to question the rulers of their colonies and the Emperor of their homeworld. Taking their off-world conquests was one thing, running a star spanning empire something else. Their warriors were drawn from the three castes: workers the lower ranking soldiers, merchants the technicians and the scholars the officers and religious leaders. After several Emperors were either overthrown, assassinated or proved unable to run the Empire, a group of merchants and scholars banded together units under their command. Backed by the workers who saw their labor going to waste in the Empire’s decline, they overthrew the Emperor. The Cay Union would have an elected council that rotated among the various families, worlds and the three castes. The Cay off-world were enjoyed the lack of Imperial control. Many families and minority groups flourished far from the persecution of the Empire. They didn't want the Union's Guardians kicking down their doors and dragging them away to the secret courts the Union was setting up. They fled to the “Southern Cross” and the “huu-maan” settlements. The Cay Union is located on the world the CU simply called “Homeworld”. In their language , Cay means “People”, the title of the state means “Union of the People”. It's a People's Republic of Tyranny, Red China by way of Nazi Germany to the tune of NineteenEightyFour.

Their military reflects this. The War Fleet is their “navy”. The former “Imperial Grand Army” is now the “People's Grand Army”. There is a police force and the Guardians who handle all “political crime” and intelligence. Thanks to their fantastic immune response, the Cay Union uses cybernetics on their soldiers. From drug implants to full exoskeletons, the options are only limited to what the Union's military needs. Of course no soldier or crewman can refuse cybernetics. Rumors abound that some of the implants are rigged to explode to prevent capture or mutiny.

Their high tolerance for toxins has backfired. Rampant unchecked heavy industry has led to terrible pollution. Fertility rates for the factory worlds in the Union are dipping down. The Union has instituted mandatory motherhood as a result. Not that it's fixing the problem. No one in the Union dares criticize the industry that fuels the Union's war machine and brings in hard currency from interstellar trade.

The Evil Counterpart to The Cay Empire. Not quite a Vestigial Empire. The Union has held onto a good portion of the Empire's holdings.

So how does this inform their tactics?

Elite units may get all the glory but it's the regular troops who get the job done.

The Empire was built on conquest and mercantilism. They rapidly colonized worlds near Homeworld and invaded many of the neighbors. They “liberated” the Martissans, killing the race they called “the Masters” and taking the place. It's common for enemy commanders to be executed so that prisoners know who's in charge. Despite their image as hostile alien hordes, they have been know to spare cities and ships that have surrendered. Spies and insurgents are not welcome however. Resources, technology and cities, the three things the Union is interested in. They'll surround a space station rather than destroy it, but if they think it will be lost they'll blow it up.

The Cay in the Union prefer to be on the offensive. At the “brigade” level, commanders have wide latitude, doing as they wish as long as their units are moving forward. Lower level commanders can and will go off on their own if they see and opening in enemy lines. Massive firepower is directed at the enemy to utterly destroy or demoralize most of their forces. In space, union ships operate alone or in groups of two or three unless the High Command has operations planned.

Their army moves on a mix of vehicles, powered armor and pack animals. Some of their animals are bred to hunt humans as a consequence of their war with the UEG. It's common for Union troops to carry a sword or large knife in addition to a bayonet attached to their main weapon. This is a tradition and a practical weapon when supplies run low. The War Fleet consists of a few elite squadrons and a large reserve fleet. What gives them an advantage is that they have Artificial Gravity and can stay on patrol longer than Earth ships. The Cay were the first to combine “jumpships” with “warp drive”. So their fleet moves faster than the EDF. The result is that the Cay Union focuses on a quick flight. Their elite units are given a very strict training regimen. The rest of the military has strict discipline, but not as strict as those elite units on the front lines. Their weakness is that the elite units focus on combat while the rest of the Union focuses on being a garrison force.

Relevant Tropes:

• Aliens Are Bastards: Union forces will shoot anything. After the battle they will steal any technolgy or resources.
  • Alien Invasion: what they tried to do to Earth, how the Empire viewed humans.
  • Low Culture, High Tech: Their version of The Empire made it offworld. Many traditions carry over: executing enemy leaders, raiding for goods and money
  • The Martissans and other races were mostly peaceful. Humans are warlike and in some cases just as fierce as the Cay. So the Union wants to invade Earth.

• Red Shirt Army: The border forces, mostly the Union keeps it's elite mooks moving to put the EDF off balance. Others are advisers to the Southern Cross.

• Standard Sci-Fi Army: The “People's Grand Army”
  • Magnetic Weapons, Laser Rifles and “SMGs” along with “Slug Throwers.”
  • Space Marine: All Union Soldiers are trained in space operations and ground operations.
  • Rock Beats Laser: They practice with several Swords and Polearms too.

• Powered Armor: various versions exist and are used along with:
  • Tanks, including Walking Tanks and spider tanks
  • Awesome Personnel Carrier: from wheeled, walking and hovering
  • Animal mounts and pack animals.

• Bug War: Some of the mounts and beasts of burden they use are giant “pseudo-insects”. They breed them to feed on humans. The EDF responded by making bio-androids with Animal Motifs.
  • Others are just large, big mean animals with More Teeth than the Osmond Family

• Army of Thieves and Whores: commanders on the border retain the old imperial tradition of raiding non-Cay settlements. Union soldiers have looted human settlements.

• Standard Sci-Fi Fleet: The Cay have Artificial Gravity and were the first to combine “jumpships” with “warp drive”.
  • Their cruisers are larger and faster than those of the Earth Defense Force. Their older cruisers have been sold to the Southern Cross.
  • Being able to take higher G-forces, the Cay still employ fighters and scouts alongside Attack Drones and Kill Sats
  • They have more “multi-mission” ships as well.

• Enemy Mine: Why the Empire supported the Southern Cross in their push for independence because it was an Enemy Civil War.
  • Gondor Calls for Aid: There are still Southern Cross supporters in the Union. They arranged for weapons, ships and pack animals to be sent as aid.

edited 2nd Sep '13 3:26:25 PM by TairaMai

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

Nice!

Am I correct in presuming the pack animals are armoured or otherwise protected? Is there any particular reason pack animals are used? I'm asking since it's an interesting element that sticks out to me.

As for me, I'm wondering how the Confederacy's military and tactics/strategies could be affected by the seemingly contradictory nature of their operations:

1. They must be able to compete with the Coalition*

in direct confrontations, esp. "set piece" battles where it may not be possible to disengage and attack in an alternative manner.

2. They must also be capable of being a fluid force that can absorb any blows delivered whilst making low key but sustained guerrilla style attacks behind enemy lines or shifting momentum rapidly to adapt to changing circumstances.

To get an idea of what I'm aiming for, think of a non-newtonian*

fluid - free flowing and capable of shifting position quickly, but when significant force is applied it turns rock hard. NATO with a quasi-insurgent vibe.

I don't think I explained that very well, but hopefully people will be able to puzzle it out and give me an answer.

Locking you up on radar since '09

The Cay have some armor for various animals, but only for shrapnel and melee weapons. Animals are easier to "make" (if you have a male and female for instance), they are light (younger animals are small and easy to ship), the Cay don't care about ecological damage of colony worlds (it's biting them in the rear however). Many are local so they don't have to worry about shipping.

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

Oh, I see! That would be pretty handy, I guess. As you said, it doesn't really cost that much to get a new baby animal - the same can't really be said of precision tooled machinery with all the latest and greatest toys.

Locking you up on radar since '09