LGBTQ+ Rights Worldwide

@Handle, Spain does have gay marriage actually. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Spain

And off topic but the Franco regime wasn't really fascist so much as it was ultraconservative with militaristic trappings. Totally different path than Germany/Italy.

We have a parenting thread.

It started off as a fascist-conservative alliance, not unlike Vichy France in terms of ideology, then... had different periods. Spanish nationalism at the expense of regional nationalism, work fetishism, extreme materialism, and iron-clad ideological repression and censorship, together with a huge emphasis on catholicism and the Church, and a fetishization of Spain's history as a defender of Christianity (victims of the Moors, then conquerors, bane of the Turks, evangelizers of the West Indies, bannermen of the Counter-Reform), have remained constants. There was also a huge fascist emphasis on state-backed mega-corps and the military (there was conscription for everyone). In France, fascist has become a catch-all term for "authoritarian uncompromising right-wing jackass"; children would easily use it to refer to a Stern Teacher. "Elle est complétement facho!"

So, yeah, they were different from Italy, Germany, and Japan, and those were very different from each other just as much. So. Fascists. Fascists love babies. That's one thing they all had in common. And it goes with the meme-plex of hating abortion and gays.

Gay marriage was approved under the Socialists in 2005. Later on, the sons of fascists tried to repeal gay marriage in 2011, but failed. As for Abortion, they're trying to go back on the bases set by the Socialists (laws pretty similar to what's done elsewhere in Europe, you can abort up to the fourteenth week, and even at a later point if your health is in danger or the child has some defect and between sixteen and eighteen you don't need your parents' consent, and, if you're from an abusive household, you need not even inform them); they want to get rid of that and go back to the rules of 1985. They announced the project in January. The project is under fire by the socialists for sucking and for vulnerating women's rights and making things go back to the era of clandestine abortions.

edited 20th Apr '13 7:33:27 PM by TheHandle

Gay marriage is one of the most contentious issues in France.

Opposition to gay marriage seems to be the main issue facing Hollande. Aside from the economy, Muslim rights and wine it's all I ever hear about France these days.

Its pretty certainly going to pass. Divorce was passed in the 90s, yes. But that was a different time. Like most of Western Europe, secularisation is playing a large role in showing support for same-sex marriage. As its a public referendum, it is certain to pass; even as far back as 2008, 80% of Irish citizens supported gay marriage (and even so, Ireland has civil unions, which are gay marriage in all but name).

Are they, though? I got the impression that, for most legal purposes, civil unions were not the same as gay marriage.

Depends on the jurisdiction, for the most part.

Indeed. The days of "Catholic Ireland", with Archbishop McQuaid and the Church's vast influence on politics are over. The Church's influence had been waning for decades, but Enda Kenny broke the spell with the Cloyne Speech:

Ireland doesn't even have a resident embassy to the Vatican any more.

edited 21st Apr '13 10:14:25 AM by Achaemenid

@ Op. In most European countries, a civil union offers the same rights and benefits as a regular marriage. The main point of gay marriage activism in these countries is the "separate-but-equal" effect.

Judging by that article about France... it seems like that French are far more homophobic than the Spanish or Irish (talking about the general public here). And I generally assumed that the French were more secular than most of Catholic Europe, is there a far-right/nationalist aspect to this or did everyone really underestimate French religious sentiments?

I don't think France is more homophobic, but the homophobes here are getting more vocal because they're desperate.

The only politicians who pander to the religious are the far right Front National, whom everybody else view as the Devil. Oh, and Nicolas Sarkozy because he was trying to leech off the FN's votes.

Of course, maybe my view is biased, because most people I know less than 60 years old are left-winged people working in IT.

edited 21st Apr '13 12:36:16 PM by Medinoc

The French are a weird bunch. They are a very secular people. But note: secular =/= athiestic. France is also one of the more religious states in Northern Europe.

You also have to bear in mind the fact that Muslims make up 11% of the population (as opposed to about 2% in the UK).

Hoh-hoh-he-haw, les batardes islamiques sont nicking touts our jobs et nos wimmin'

I should really leave this to Miles Kington...

So the majority of the French public are in favor of marriage equality but not enough to take to the streets in counter protests? Cause I haven't seen rallies like this in any other Western state (barring the US). Though maybe my stereotyping was just wrong.

Yes that was Spain, it wasn't all good but.

Still can't see Ireland changing, it's not like everyone over 50 died or left office. Unions are one thing but people balk at the M word.

@ireland: Seems like a truly spectacular case of Proken Pedestal. Sorry, guys, that must have felt like a horrible betrayal.

This is all news to me. The French... they used to be very left-wing, you know; even in The '90s, right-wing politicians dared not call themselves such, and publicly took offense at the term! But what surprises me is that this is a matter of right versus left (when in France the fight between these two is more about economics than about individual freedoms), and that the French Right is parading French nationalist symbols from the First Republic. I've always failed to understand how one can be right-wing and yet bear the symbols of The French Revolution. Heck, in their Euros is written "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity", this is pretty extreme stuff, how can right-wingers recite these with a straight face?

edited 21st Apr '13 12:48:50 PM by TheHandle

Well, I know *I* am in favor of gay marriage but too lazy and apathetic to descend into the streets, so I'd guess a lot of people are.

Sometimes I wonder if our right wings is really courting homophobic votes or if they're just opposing the left for the sake of it, like your GOP. The problem is I cannot fathom a rational reason for opposing gay marriage (And I don't believe our religious guys are quite as rabid as yours), so I have a hard time understanding the enemy.

edited 21st Apr '13 12:50:37 PM by Medinoc

?

I could see that. Hollande is already getting hit thanks to the shitty economy so any wedge issue that could rally people to your side makes sense, from a political standpoint.

Also it seems our anti-gays seem to be more concerned about gay adoption than marriage (with all their insistence on "Family") but maybe it's just rationalizing.

The main group, in addition to claiming they're not homophobes, also claim some of them are gays.

edited 21st Apr '13 12:54:22 PM by Medinoc

You'd think a powerful police state with ties to the military, church and corporate backing would be perfect on paper, in practice it turned out to be less than ideal.

edited 21st Apr '13 1:00:07 PM by joeyjojo

Dystopia Is Hard

Anywho would I be right in assuming that France's opposition from gay marriage is mainly from it's high number of Islamic migrants? Not meaning to stereotype anything...

I have no idea, especially as the right wing is also typically anti-muslim/anti-arab/unable to tell the difference. Frankly, I have absolutely no information about the anti-gay demographic, sorry.

PS: And please don't call these guys "France". It's insulting.

edited 21st Apr '13 1:19:26 PM by Medinoc

Sozz