The General Religion, Mythology, and Theology Thread

"The Bible says to love thy neighbor as you love thyself...and trust me, I love myself...frequently."

In other words, don't use your position as a parent to do what you feel like, but rather to enforce the Bible's dictates.

So for instance, yes, if your child tells you they want to engage in a homosexual relationship, you should say it's wrong. Demanding they get Ludovico style conversion therapy or else you'll throw them out into the street is not remotely loyal to any teaching in the Scripture.

edited 4th Apr '13 8:54:16 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It seems to be the most popular inquisition. T_T There were other inquisitions, of course.

works for me.

interesting take on it. As we're on parenting. Where in the bible does it say that you should force a child to obey your will? After all, is not much of the bible about God telling us we are making a mistake but letting us make it anyway, so that we can learn? Is not the idea of self determination and being allowed to make mistakes a key part of god's message? Why are children not included in that part, are we not all children in the eyes of god?

edited 4th Apr '13 9:01:57 AM by Silasw

@Starship: Good point. I would still refute that those rules are for your own happiness much of the time.

A big question I have about religion is how can we follow God if he won't explain the rules? "Homosexuality is a sin" but why is it a sin? Does it ever say anything other than it is an abomination?

What is the use of loving God over people? I don't see how loving God can be expressed to others except through loving people, so why not just skip the God bit and go straight to the loving people bit? It can be done just as well without a god involved, surely.

He can see everything and thinks it's icky.

edited 4th Apr '13 9:04:00 AM by Elfive

Assuming, of course, you believe it's wrong. I don't, so if I had any kids I'd tell them no such thing.

Okay, more Bible then (sigh). If you believe in the teachings of the book and then violate the teachings of the book that makes you a bad follower. If you declare what you did was in the name of your God when your text says otherwise that makes you a hypocrite. Loving little boys is not loving your neighbor as yourself, it is taking advantage of your neighbor to satisfy yourself.

Now there have been religions an laws in practice in human history that actually do allow what we would call pedophilia. It seems silly to me to attack one that does on the basis well he was a Christian and he did this. Equivalently if a politician takes a bribe that means there is a problem with the law, even if the law does not permit such a thing. No, we just need to enforce something better if it is being violated.

The best way to fight a religion is to use its own beliefs against it, if it has a canon that makes it all the easier. A Christian who lives up to his teachings is harmless beyond constantly reminding people where they do not measure up to his standards. Even then he must pray and help you to do better and admit his own transgression and work to correct them if possible. A Christian who actually does what Jesus says is not a threat to society, if we find such a Christian acting in error the best way to do it is with the New Testament.

We do not exactly know why God caused Noah's flood (unless you count Enoch, in which it was a punishment to the Bene Elohim who had infected an area of creation they were not suppose to interact with, namely Earth), but we do know he is not going to do it again. It has very little relevance on Christian behavior as far as I can see.

The plagues against the Egyptians were mostly equivalent exchange. Egyptians tried to kill every Hebrew boy so they lost their first borns, they went back on their word and sent an army to slaughter liberated slaves so the army was slaughtered. They do seem a little excessive, we would say oust Pharaoh and that would solve everything but when Israelites were enslaving people over sandals, oppressing foreigners and selling loans with interest in Amos they got a plagues of locusts ect too so he was equal opportunity in his punishment. The God does not enjoy handing out the punishments or seeing people die and in fact stops handing them out later. These are not things for Christians to pray for or take comfort in. They are to leave judgment to their God and pray for their enemies, they are to fountains of goodwill.

If a Christen uses old Testament to justify something point them to Ezekiel where the old pact is to be replaced with a new one which the Bible says Jesus brought. If they try to pass judgment based on their God remind them that they are not God to judge such a thing. It helps to be fluent enough in the texts to recognize a twisting. There are still many things that are unclear as far as action and morality go but Christians are not allowed to cause harm, wish for it or indulge in hatred toward their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ (which is every human being as the sacrifice of Jesus was for them all)

That said, sometimes mixing our secular knowledge with our spiritual beliefs can be dangerous. "Chinamen are not human! They have a different sized skull! Therefore it is no sin to sell them opium!" So merely knowing the text will not always disprove a Christen intent on doing evil but it is still a vital first step. But then your values may just be different anyway. If you believe eating meat is evil then Christians were an evil sect indeed. Still, they are not allowed to hurt you personally.

@Card - That is a valid question, and far better men than I have tried to answer it, and they haven't gotten it totally correct. The best answer I can give is that if God took the time to explain why every single thing was wrong, the Bible would take up 17,465,278,902 pages. I guess he was going for British Brevity??

You know Silasw you bring up a good question. In some circles, good parenting IS letting your child make their own mistakes. As with everything their has to be balance. I could allow my daughter to shoplift, and let the legal consequences have their way with her, or I could just force her out of that behavior early on.

Of course, that is a big component. From what I've seen from parenting counselors, parents wait until around 10 or so when a child's behavior is now manifesting in public to now want to discipline them.

That sort of things has to start out the gate, when a gentle word will work far better than a beating.

EDIT: Cider, that was awesome.

edited 4th Apr '13 9:13:33 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

X6 Because were meant to trust him. It's that simple in a way, we're meant to trust that god has our best invests at hear and knows what he's doing. I'm sure we all have a friend or two who if they said "look just trust me, I know you think that is harmless but you can't do it and I can't tell you why", we would say "okay then, I'll trust you on this one" even if it made no sense. God is meant to be that friend for all of us, it's just that for the physical friends we have a relationship that we remember that makes us trust them, while with god our relationship is so old that we've forgotten the bits of it that makes us trust him.

I think.

Edit: holy fracking ninja's. give me a sec to catch up.

X5 you mean by loving everyone? I think the two things are meant to be the same, if you love everyone then you are loving god, likewise if you love god then you are eloping everyone. It's not god being a step, it's the same thing.

edited 4th Apr '13 9:17:12 AM by Silasw

(sighs) I wish this was true (most of the time). Unfortunately, a lot of people have to be (persuaded) to avoid causing problems.

For example, infanticide. People, for a freakishly long time, knew that having sex equals making babies. But too many, even though they couldn't afford to have kids, kept having sex. And the babies that they don't want/can't afford to take care of - they expose to the elements.

Exposure is not even a mercy kill. They just leave babies somewhere, expecting someone else to take care of it or have it killed by wild animals (or whatever).

Some cultures think this was okay. Other cultures did NOT think this was okay. Jews didn't think it was okay. Ancient Egyptians did not think it was okay.

The cultures that did not think it was okay outlawed it and/or use religion to forbid it.

We have to keep in mind that sexual morality laws isn't only about forbidding pleasure.

@Starship &Silasw: Maybe that works, I've had friends like that. But I usually got it explained to me later why the behavior was wrong, this seems more like a cosmic "Because I said so."

Not quite. As I've said before the Bible does says in nearly every other chapter, "Obey me and see if I don't bless you beyond what you could even imagine."

So it's less "Because I said so" and more "Because I will prove it to you."

Or you could explain to your kid why shoplifting is bad, explain the consequences (then explain it all again so that they actually hear what you're saying) and let them make up their own mind. Why isn't that an option?

god appears to work on a much long timescale then humans. So for all we know he could explain it. The moment you pass though the gates of heaven god might be sitting there and go "right, I believe you want to know why some things are a sin. Let me explain".

edited 4th Apr '13 9:25:02 AM by Silasw

Or "do this or I'll torture you for eternity".

edited 4th Apr '13 9:24:47 AM by Morgikit

It's a little hard to prove though. Patience is a virtue would mean more in this case if God actually blessed them in their life. Maybe you can call all sorts of things blessings but I can turn around and offer explanations for them.

Well there is that too.

edited 4th Apr '13 9:26:37 AM by Wildcard

That's not an option because a young girl can't have the same grasp of consequences as a grown man. She doesn't know how and won't think how companies will stick her name in a database and ensure she can't get a job years after the fact over a $20 bag.

I have the right to spare her those consequences and impose my own will on her since I'm the parent, and I genuinely know better. Once she's gotten older...well, that's a different story.

But no, I can't permit a child to make up their own mind. I don't do "free range" parenting.

She can know if you teach her. I don't agree with a lot of those parenting methods either, but I think your underestimating a child's reasoning skills there.

Yeah, I was raised in a no-bullshit environment and I turned out fine.

You are either grossly overestimating your own intelligence or grossly underestimating that of children. You want examples of how free range children raising has worked then I can give you plenty. Starting with me, I didn't have to attend lessons if I didn't want to, I and the other kids made and enforced all non Heath and Safety rules at my school. Yet I and most of the kids I was at that school with are doing better then average. .

edited 4th Apr '13 9:38:04 AM by Silasw

@Silasw: That is interesting. Was your school part of any number of schools that did that?

Surprisingly the thing I'd worry most about there would be bullying. How do they stop that there?

I like the idea of a perfect God, at least because it can keep arrogance in check. God is perfect and you are not, you are still a sinner and the only thing that sets you apart from the animals is that you strive, however futilely, to live up to the standards of a perfect God.

As said, there is still room for interpretation and you should be aware of what one could logically come to. You should definitely be aware of what one thinks of their perfect God. For example, Chrysippus and Zeus, make sure it is not Zeus the rapist! If he meant an unrelated thing that just so happens to have the same name okay but if not, worry(wonder why Socrates and Plato were more popular?). In the Christian case, long as the God orders you to turn the other cheek I can assume he had his reasons when he ordered those before to fight the Edomites down to the last man...maybe not if he is not my God but if the perfect God insists there is now no more excuse for people to fight each other at least I do not have to fear your belief in him.

And if you believe nothing will achieve perfection in this life, hopefully that will not translate into an inflated opinion of one's self or an unhealthy admiration for something that is most definitely flawed, like the "unsinkable Titanic or wonderful priest who secretly molests little boys. Hopefully the knowledge that only your God is perfect will allow you to swallow your pride and carefully steer your boat, to hold your clergy accountable when they transgress and not rationalize their behavior or coverup their deeds.

Flexibility in child-rearing is not the same as this trendy thing of "let the child make decisions as if they're an adult."

My old school is the oldest surviving children democracy in the world, it is part of the European democratic school movement and I believe some other organisations. If we have an education thread I will happily go into more detail, though I'd say that while we had bullying it wasn't normally anything serious. Both because of the fact that the entire community would pass judgment upon you, and the fact that you lived with each other (boarding school).

That and that like every good democracy it has a hereditary monarch with supreme power who never exercises it (headmistress inherited the school from her father and is in the process of passing it on to her son).

I'm trendy...? You've yet to say why a child can't make impotent decisions if properly educated. Before you point children not properly educated making poor decision I'd like you to look at yourself, your friends and your government for examples of poorly informed adults making stupid decisions. What's the difference?

edited 4th Apr '13 9:50:49 AM by Silasw