The Psychology Thread

"Honestly, one of my goals is to put my ideas about morality into words. Which will allow me to properly examine my ideas and create a complete and coherent moral framework."

Sounds good, you should go for it.

But yeah, I agree, this is more appropriate for the philosophy thread.

Few days ago, I finished reading THE DRUNKARD'S WALK: How Randomness Rules Our Lives, by Leonard Mlodinow. There were many interesting explorations in this book about varieties of subjects, but it was probably about economics and psychology, and behavioral economics.

Among psychology-related bits, I was particularly fascinated by one about "availability heuristic/availability bias", the human tendency to rely on information that comes readily to mind when evaluating situations or making decisions.

From chapter 2:

While I have observed/experienced this kind of thought process a lot, I never learned the proper, psychological term until now.

That's extremely vague and gives a lot of power to the person in charge of what "reasonable" means.

I can argue that murder is perfectly reasonable, actually, if I so wished, and if no one can defeat that argument to the satisfaction of the Great Decider of Reasonableness, surely that would make murder allowed.

With all due respect can we please discuss philosophy in a philosophy thread.

@dRoy: That's true about most heuristics, actually. Because they take place before information reaches our conscious mind we can't know, in the moment, that we are manifesting it. We can only know post hoc, when (if) we evaluate our behavior objectively.

So.

Egocentrism.

The single most toxic and destructive trait in the world. Responsible for everything from social inequality to abuse to dictatorships to manmade climate change.

How the fuck do we get rid of every last trace of it from every human mind?

Or at least curb it. Somehow without destroying all individuality in the process, because whoever enforced widespread Death of Personality (basically genocide) would have to be dangerously arrogant themselves to think they had the right to do such a thing. And conformity creates a different kind of narcissism - it leads to the majority looking down on anyone who doesn't fit the in-group.

Literally shaking while writing this post. My family and I have experienced severe narcissistic abuse, and I have a massive knee-jerk disgust reaction to any kind of selfishness. In others, in myself, in fictional characters, and sadly even in people who can't help it (like small children). Even reading or writing the word "egocentrism", or any related word, makes my stomach clench. I'm also extremely skeptical about the self-love movement. No. We shouldn't love ourselves. We should have zero regard for ourselves.

Selfishness is just the worst thing in the world.

What can be done about it, barring Assimilation Plot?

Edited by CalicoCaitSith on Nov 25th 2023 at 12:50:48 PM

Sounds like a terrible idea, egocentrism is pretty great, actually, and also even if it weren't, there'd be no way to eliminate it (or really reduce it) short of extremely long-term eugenics, which should be undesirable for obvious reasons.

Also you could plausibly blame pretty much any trait or just general societal factors for the things you blame on egocentrism.

Also narcissism too is pretty great actually, people are way too mean to narcissists. It's just another neurodivergence. Narcissistic abuse isn't really distinct from normal abuse.

Edited by Florien on Nov 25th 2023 at 12:59:33 PM

I...what? There's a pretty big difference between not letting people walk over you and being an egomaniac. And, take it from someone who has been stuck dealing with narcissists for most of my life: it's fucking awful to be on the receiving end of that.

Why, exactly is it great to be stuck dealing with someone who doesn't see you as a real person and instead just constantly manipulates you to get what they want with no regard for your well being and where, if you're lucky, they see you as a possession? People with a narcissistic disorder are actually more prone to being abusive, especially since they have a really hard time realizing that's what they're doing.

There's a bunch of neurodivergencies that point towards behaviour that hurts everyone around the person and hurts themselves.

You are almost certainly attaching the wrong labels to healthy behaviour. Having pride in yourself is good. Having so much pride that you can barely comprehend the idea that other people might matter is bad. Standing up for yourself and recognizing your own accomplishments? Good! Obsessively fixating on yourself? Bad!

Edited by Zendervai on Nov 25th 2023 at 4:11:00 AM

Florien: To be frank, that was pretty triggering. I don't know if you meant it that way, but it came across as "don't be too harsh on your abuser".

(Trigger warning here for anyone else who's experienced abuse)

The guy who nearly drove my mother to suicide with his constant put-downs. The guy who hit my sister so hard across the dinner table she fell backwards in the chair, because she apparently "didn't know her place". The guy who couldn't take criticism without getting mad, and blamed every shitty thing he did on everyone else because he was perfect in his own eyes. The guy who constantly bragged that all my successes were due to him, and that without his influence I'd be nowhere. The guy who practically worshipped himself and treated everyone else like scum.

That's unchecked narcissism at its worst. No, not every narcissist is abusive, but the condition still has a high correlation with destructive behaviour. Even though my stepdad never chose to have a disorder, he still chose not to get help and improve his behaviour.

I just feel we should be doing more as human beings to curb our own selfishness and lack of regard for others. The question is, what exactly should be be doing?

please, tell me more about the narcissists who are proven to do abuse to a statistically significant greater degree.

Anyway more to the point, there remains a lot of hostility to those without empathy, and the hatred for narcissists is just another expression of that. At this point it's really just bigotry. Also the "manipulative" thing is deeply stupid, It comes off as "our blessed getting frustrated, concealing it, and pushing people to do things we want through various means versus their vile, cursed manipulations." Manipulative behavior is both near universal and arguably morally neutral.

It's not even about "healthy" behavior, it's about "maybe talk to an actual narcissist once in a while instead of just pathologizing seeing other people as often irrelevant." (As indeed, pretty much everyone ever does at some point!)

This was never about behavior being "healthy" (whatever that means, autism pretty famously was and often continues to be seen as unhealthy behavior, but I think you've pushed back on that, so why not this?) I think you're conflating my "narcissists are pretty great actually" with some sort of claim that they are the only valuable part of society. They ought to be a valued part of society, of course, no group shouldn't be. They are a valuable part of society, but they're not the only valuable part.

Edited by Florien on Nov 25th 2023 at 1:36:49 AM

...What the fuck are you talking about?

Talk to one? I lived with one for seven years. And egocentrism isn't so great when you're on the receiving end of it. You wouldn't want to be manipulated and treated as irrelevant, so why treat others that way?

There's a difference between lacking empathy and lacking basic regard for others.

Can I ask what your history with psychology actually is?

Because Narcissistic Personality Disorder is generally seen as very negative. A lot of the problems with autism come from how other people treat autistic people. It's the same thing with a lot of other disabilities. With NPD, the problem comes from how people with it behave towards others.

And, I have to be completely blunt, I've talked to narcissists. A lot of them. It kinda comes with working for a child protection agency. (I couldn't hack it, I work elsewhere now) And yeah, there's a big difference between "I don't understand other people" and "I only consider other people in how they can benefit me." It's not pathologizing to recognize that someone diagnosed with NPD is being a truly awful person when they're trying to manipulate you into giving them money while you're evaluating them to make sure they can handle taking care of a kid. That particular guy straight up seemed literally incapable of understanding that his own wants weren't the top priority of everyone else on the planet. He wanted money at the exact moment I was talking to him, so that's what the conversation was about, nevermind that it was a court mandated meeting.

Not all people with NPD are like that, of course, it's pretty extreme, but a lot of people with NPD are genuinely terrible to spend time with and really do spend a lot of time trying to manipulate others into doing things against their own best interests because one of the diagnosis criteria of NPD is to elevate your own self-importance and devalue the importance of everyone else. It's literally part of how it works.

If someone has a really hard time understanding emotions and doesn't act like a manipulative nutcase towards me, I'll extend them a ton of patience and understanding, but narcissism is awful to be on the receiving end of and that's not something that can be downplayed.

There are negative mental issues that don't really have positive manifestations. Borderline personality disorder is like this too, and bipolar can easily move into the realm of intolerable for anyone living with them. It doesn't mean the people dealing with the issues are monsters, but it's awful and extremely stressful to be on the receiving end of it. Someone not being able to handle narcissistic behaviour and cutting the narcissist out isn't "it's too much of a pain for me to try", it's generally "my mental health is in a terrible place and I literally, genuinely cannot handle this, especially if the person with NPD is refusing to seek any help."

And with autism, a lot of it was pathologizing a lack of facial expression and not bothering to ask people in studies how they were feeling. "Autistic people have no emotions and no empathy" is extremely incorrect.

Edited by Zendervai on Nov 25th 2023 at 5:42:18 AM

Yes, the whole "accept all neurodiversities unconditionally" thing doesn't cut it if a neurodiversity consistently causes behaviour that's harmful to oneself and others. I say this as an autistic person. There's a big difference between autism and NPD.

Narcissists should absolutely be encouraged to get help, because NPD is something that can be managed, and growth mentality is more constructive than shame mentality. But that isn't the duty of the one being mistreated, and if the narcissist won't get help, that's on them. Yes the condition makes it difficult to acknowledge they have a problem, but disability isn't an excuse to be a toxic human being.

Saying narcissism is just another neurodiversity is like saying pedophilia is just another sexuality.

What criteria establish autism as neurodivergence as opposed to mental illness? Is there a certain threshold of the spectrum where it crosses over from divergence to disorder?

Edited by Negacube on Nov 26th 2023 at 8:16:39 AM

The criteria of "we don't call it that any more"? I think it's just a question of changing terminology and attitudes towards what we used to call mental illness or disorders.

The Other Wiki talks about this on the Autism page.

Some parts of the spectrum are acknowledged as neurodiversity. Others are viewed as a disability that can benefit from support measures. The discussion about if and where we draw that line is ongoing.

Either way, it's seen as a lifelong condition and not something that can be 'cured' - so the 'illness' terminology is considered misleading on those grounds as well.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 26th 2023 at 1:40:36 PM

It becomes a medical disorder when the authors of the medical textbooks like the DSM-5 say it is.

The difference between a neurodivergency and a disorder is whether or not it causes harm to oneself and/or others by its very nature. As Zendervai said, most of the problems autistic people face comes from the way society treats us. Something like depression, on the other hand, can rip away a person's agency and destroy their quality of life no matter what.

Even if I had a full team of carers to do everyday chores, and didn't have to work, and everyone in the world were 100% understanding, living with depression would still be hellish. Without antidepressants and therapy, frankly I probably wouldn't be here right now. Yes it helps a great deal when people are respectful and accommodating, but the pain and exhaustion are still major issues. That and most people need to be active in some way. Most people need some kind of structure to their everyday lives (this is especially true of autistics). Very often, living with depression feels like living with an abuser, and the abuser is my own mind.

And yes, some disorders do make harm to others far more likely. No they're not a get-out-of-jail-free card. There's no "Oh they have NPD, give them some slack and accept them as they are" if they're consistently putting others down to big themselves up. If they treat people as tools that only exist to serve them. A narcissist absolutely has rights, and deserves help. But that doesn't make narcissism in itself a good, neutral or harmless thing.

Edited by CalicoCaitSith on Nov 26th 2023 at 1:53:18 PM

Basically that, yes.

That sounds about right, some autists don't need any medication or much support at all, while others do need a lot.

Edited by Redmess on Nov 26th 2023 at 2:54:05 PM

And being accepting and kind of someone’s issues doesn’t mean letting them walk all over you. Like, if you have an autistic person who is terrible at identifying when they’re basically drowning someone else in their special interest, you don’t just go to the other person and go “well, suck it up, they’re autistic”. You work with the autistic person to help them learn where the line is and how to share their special interests without it just being an endless torrent of exposition with no reciprocation. And sometimes, just talking to the autistic person about it is good enough.

With NPD and BPD and stuff like unmedicated bipolar, the person suffering from it is harming themselves really badly too. It is hellish to have a severe narcissistic disorder because you’re basically perceiving anything not being for your benefit as an attack on you (in most cases) and your brain makes you see people doing stuff other than what you want as being totally irrational and alien. People with those disorders need help and therapy and support, but not everyone is capable of being that support…and that’s okay.

But I think the big thing to point out here is that, regardless of everything else, it’s not actually okay to see someone talk about how they suffered from narcissistic abuse and basically immediately go “but narcissists are great!” It’s offputting and alienating and comes off like you’re excusing the abuser for being abusive. And, uh, I have to be honest, talking like that, especially with that timing, feeds into a lot of nasty stereotypes about how people with no emotional reciprocity behave.

I’m uh, also really curious about how someone with a disorder severe enough to get diagnosed that makes them overvalue themselves and undervalue everyone else is apparently great to be around. Someone with NPD who has medication and therapy can be fine to be around, but when they haven’t had any treatment? Even the “nice” people dealing with NPD can do stuff like show up four hours late for a movie and then get mad that people didn’t wait and waste their tickets and miss the movie.

Edited by Zendervai on Nov 26th 2023 at 9:32:26 AM

Going to be completely honest, Florien. I'd been struggling through a mental health crash, and that really set back my progress. As in, I had a dissociation episode. Everything felt distant, except the traumatic memories. In hindsight I probably should have known better than to open up about something sensitive on the Internet, and I know you didn't intend to cause any harm, but it really was bad timing and came across as disrespectful.

So please don't do that again. Don't excuse people's abusers and act like it's the ones who were/are mistreated who are in the wrong. Nobody's saying you have to understand or feel for others, but please, please at least try to respect them and treat them the way you'd want to be treated.

Edited by CalicoCaitSith on Nov 26th 2023 at 1:22:52 PM

Sorry you've had to go through that, that sounds very unpleasant.

It's hard to open up about these sort of things, and harder to deal with people gaslighting you by downplaying your experiences with abusers. Be careful when you try to open up about these things because the internet is going to internet and make you feel awful.

I wish you the best and hope you continue the road to recovery. Your feelings matter and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.

If anything, is there a way to treat ot deal with narcisist? I investigated a little and one woman who have it and was kinda sorta funtional describe as "you know that part that said other people are...well....people? you kinda dont have it, like they are NPC to a degree" and said constantly have to said in conversation if something is wrong that is probably is fault in order to counter it.

It was a iluminating experience

It's frustrating as hell having to deal with those people. If it's a realistic option, the best thing to do is to just get away from them.