The Value of Teachers

It also doesnt help that people seem to think that when a school is underperforming, cutting funding will make the teachers work more effectively. Which is kind of like supposing a bad janitor will keep a building spotless of you take away his mops.

I don't know why teachers are looked down upon so much but I bet it's because people had one or two bad teachers in their lives so now they assume all teachers suck and how said teachers couldn't do anything else with their lives. Teachers is like that babysitter kids don't like and refuse to listen to them because "YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME! I DON'T GOTTA LISTEN TO YOU!"

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.

First time I've agreed with you in some time, Midget.

The first thing I'd examine at an underperforming school is the curriculum.

Hail Martin Septim!

Yeah. And then maybe see if they need better funding. Its near impossible to teach effectively if your classroom is falling apart and your textbooks are from the 1970's and the computer is a relic from 1990

Is there a cultural component to this thing? I mean, teachers (as a profession in general) in eastern cultures such as Japan or China seems to be much more respected compared to here in North America.

edited 24th Sep '12 12:20:28 PM by nightwyrm_zero

Personally, I'd say it's hard to teach from textbooks on general principle - the things are pretty much designed to be unabsorbable pablum. 1970 or earlier might actually help, if it's a literature textbook - censoring and watering down the material wasn't nearly so universal then.

But addressing what you were trying to say: if a cartoonishly impoverished school like that actually exists, then it's not for lack of funding - district funding has been on a consistent national upswing for decades - but misallocation of funding, usually towards administrators, consultants, and sports.

Hail Martin Septim!

For public schools, the funding is also tied to local property value for reasons I don't understand at all. There's a reason why a lot of the underperforming places are in inner cities. People make their living decisions partially based on where the "good schools" are. Divorcing funding from local property values and make it more even would probably help a good deal.

I think part of the disrespect, as coming from Republican leaders, has to do with the far Right hatred of unions. Anyone who doesn't fall in line is subject to persecution on some level. So on the political level, this has led to all sorts of shenanigans that just makes it harder to do the job effectively.

And things like "No Child Left Behind", while genuinely well-meant in intent, do nothing to raise up the people who are struggling. It only succeeds in holding back the ones who excel. What this means is that students aren't getting an education that actually teaches them anything. A certain amount of flexibility to challenge the students that can go further is needed, as much as a lower level for those who are consistently stuck on the remedial level. This is where teachers being able to plan their own lessons comes in, really.

@Wuggles: We can't compare ourselves to Finland? When they're consistently outperforming us on nearly all levels? Who, exactly, should we compare ourselves to as a measure of success? It's fucking stupid to not take a good long look at the people who are succeeding and examine why. And again, the size of their population and demographics have ABSOLUTELY FUCK ALL to do with it. It has to do with decades of policies geared towards what makes their education system successful. That's what we need to examine, not their fucking ethnic demographics. Raising that as a concern is just fishing for red herrings.

Okay, fine I admit I made a mistake there. No need to for all caps and profanity, it's not that serious..

@Doma: inner city schools tend to be like that. Though yes, My own school distruct mainlyu threw its funding at the football team.

Eh, I've never seen a problem with school texts. People who's lesson plan consists of "read this chapter" and then quizzing you over it are not likely to improve if you take away their text books. And they're very useful in the science and math oriented courses for problems and what not. They're just not supposed to be used as written lessons.

Is there anything to say more on the subject without descending into a general education thread?

Fight smart, not fair.

Probably not, unless you want to talk about letting teachers write the textbooks. I've learned that teachers will do that, writing books both for schools and for just to write a book about history.

The problem comes up with the specifics of how the high school textbooks are written. It's especially a problem with subjects like history, which are effectively neutered. And if they manage to get creationism into science classes, the science books would be pretty neutered, too.

Basically, awesome authors, who are quite often teachers, write some pretty awesome and informative books on their chosen subjects when not having to worry about the requirements of the publishing company.

I've had a few instructors that did that. I suppose one thing that could be done would be to void any copyright on any text books used for schooling.

Fight smart, not fair.

First, it's really hard to get teaching qualifications and depending on your area, they maybe really stupid. I can teach certain college classes and at community college with my credintials, and I can substitute for any grade, but I cannot teach K-12. To me that is really putting a strain on finding quality teachers.

Second, I am learning more and more about just how absolutely fucked our public school system is. My son just started Kindergarden this past August and already I want to homeschool him.

Third, people are just really at a disconnect with students and administration at schools. I especially noticed this with my first Parent Teacher Organization meeting last night. Only 3 teachers showed for a K-12 school with about only 20 parents, all moms, all white, all upper middle class with me being the only poor one.

Our schools are also dangerously underfunded but there are asinine restrictions on how they are able to accept donations or do fundraisers so there are little avenues available in helping this problem.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Where the fuck is that money going◊ is the main question. Sports and what not seem to be the main direction they're going.

Fight smart, not fair.

I was trying to figure that out last night. Apparently one of the things the PTO raises money for is for the state mandated goundskeeping. There are regulations for playground coverage, flower beds, trees, etc. But the state doesn't give any funding for it. So the PTO raises the money to cover the costs.

Volunteers mow the lawns and they are cutting down the amount of subs they are hiring due to recruiting volunteer class aids instead.

This wouldn't bother me too much if they were trying to buy school books or pay the teachers a better wage, but that's not really happening either.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Just so you know it's the same here, and we generally have a good reputation in education. I admit I'm not a teacher, but to me it makes sense that someone teaching kids would need skills and qualification different than those required from a college teacher.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.

You guys also have a completely different educational model that is more based on retention and creativity. Our school system is based on test scores. I've friends with K-12 credentials. You compare their transcripts with mine, I actually have more education material classes such as specialized study, languages, etc. Some of their classes include: time management, paper resources, and inter-administration.

Basically, for every 1 subject class, they have 3 admin/politics/glorified clerical class. I get time management is an important skill but how can you turn that one thing into a full 9 week semester class worth 3 hours?

The American model is really messed up. No Child Left Behind was only implemented what, 5 years ago? And now they're already instituting a new program called CORE trying to clean up the damage that caused. If we could just get rid of the idea standardized tests are god, our kids would do better.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

I still haven't seen what's so bad about standardized tests. I see the problem with constantly issuing them, or attaching the test standards to age rather than subject level, but I don't see the problem with using them to gauge approximate knowledge level of a subject.

Fight smart, not fair.

Theres two problems with it.

One, not everyone tests well.

Two, Its a hilariously suboptimal way to teach when you teach to a test.

@Deboss: If it were used to gauge the approximate level of knowlege, then it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is that the testing well means that the school gets more funding.

That leads to teachers teaching what's on the test and nothing else. Does the highschool level test contain questions about geometry? No? Then the kids won't learn geometry this year. And so on.

edited 28th Sep '12 4:14:26 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

That sounds like a problem with what is in the tests and how they are tested as opposed to the idea of test itself.

Tests are a very good way for governments to control what is being taught to kids. Ancient China used this method for thousands of years resulting in the traditional culture today.

Teaching to the test just makes children better test takers and not really more knowledgable in the subjects. One year, the administration wants all teachers to teach for English and math and the next year it could be science and social studies. There's no consistency and all the students learn all year is preparing for a test rather than the values behind the subjects.

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.

I find the American system of testing quite odd. For the first ten years of a child's education, everything is internally-assessed by the school, as a means of tracking your progress, or to merely develop the individual. The actual proper exams start at around the age of 15, and from then to 18, the exams are pretty much qualifications, if anything.

Is that yours?

The best way to employ standardized testing is the equivalent of a course final. And it should be attached to the course, not to a grade level or age group, which is a silly concept for dividing up class time for. Using it as your only source of information is also likely to lead to failures.

Fight smart, not fair.

Yes, that is the English/Welsh/NI system (Scotland has its own system).