MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
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The Daily Heil doesn't deserve the benefit of any doubt.
The Draftsman of Doom
I still find it very interesting how some of the most hostile comments on youtube against predators who happen to be female come from women themselves, particularly women with "feminist" or "egalitarian" views.
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I’m using the quotes because the terminology might be different but the idea is the same.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 11th 2024 at 12:21:48 PM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Oh, bother.
Why the scare quotes?
And is it really surprising that women who care about equal rights think female rapists are bad?
Disgusted, but not surprised
Planeswalker
Rape is vile no matter the gender of the offender. Rape in particular is a crime very often perpetrated against women. It makes sense women would have very strong feelings on the matter.
Edited by PhiSat on Apr 11th 2024 at 10:09:53 AM
Oissu!
The Draftsman of Doom
&Fair enough.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 11th 2024 at 12:24:25 PM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
A procrastination in of itself
Yeah I know I’ve seen a male manager take sexual harassment of male staff much less seriously than the female supervisor did.
There kind of has to be a lot of men who are supportive of sexism that harms men, otherwise such stuff wouldn’t be legal in the countries where men hold the majority of legislative power (which I think is all but 1 country last I checked). The laws in the UK that mean a women forcibly having sex with a man doesn’t count as rape (it’s a ‘separate but equal’ crime by a different name) were written and passed by men, not women.
That’s the big hurdle the men’s issues movement faces right now, most men aren’t awake to the discrimination and harm they face for being men. I suspect that the early feminist movement faced similar issues and that feminism in some countries still does.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
A Self-inflicted Disaster
My theory on why in some countries, a man getting raped is not legally classified as rape, is that in those countries, rape is a crime against the property of a woman's male head of household.
It's hard to take a lot of men's issues activists seriously when a lot of them:
- Don't think of the issues men face in the framework of universal human rights
- Don't realize that a lot of the issues aren't created by women.
Edited by minseok42 on Apr 11th 2024 at 11:31:45 AM
"Enshittification truly is how platforms die"-Cory Doctorow
A procrastination in of itself
The U.K. law does recognise that a man can be raped, but only by another man.
Or to be specific, the perpetrator of a non-consensual sexual attack must use their penis as part of that attack for it to count as rape under U.K. law. I think one women has actually been convicted as part of a criminal enterprise case (where all members of a group crime are charged for all acts committed by the members of the enterprise) where a male member of the criminal enterprise raped a man.
This also means that a women cannot be charged with rape for non-consensual sex with another women.
I also think what you’ve stated about men’s issues activists sounds like your confusing them with MR As, which are a totally different group of people.
Edited by Silasw on Apr 11th 2024 at 8:49:00 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Anka Aquila
I think it's part of an issue of the cultural inertia on how men are seen in general.
One of the underlying reasonings for why people believe that men can't be sexually assaulted is because men are seen as promiscuous in general (itself one of the Jerk Justifications of times past) and because there's still the reticence to accept the idea that men can be in a position of weakness.
Edited by raziel365 on Apr 11th 2024 at 2:01:26 AM
Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Broadly speaking, society subconsciously views sex as something men do to women. This has far reaching effects
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Pretty much, also the idea of "being force to sex" is kinda a sorta comon fantasy many have and since rape have being told as male-on-female crime kinda create this perception all woman are vulnerable and all men are tough. Even when most female rapist not surprising go after teens.
Anka Aquila
And to that we also have to add the double standard in age disparity, in which a younger man/teenager being desired by an older female is seen as a mark of pride instead of being seen as creepy.
Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
I wonder if part of this double standard is because many standards for sexual behaviour originally evolved to guarantee a kind of patriarchal/parental control on the sexuality of women and only later were lack-of-endangerment and consent formulated as the major requirements for acceptable sexual behaviour. Certainly the formulation of US sex-with-children laws I've seen points to such an origin.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The Draftsman of Doom
One thing they do which bothers me, is they try and get andrological patients, male or otherwise like myself, involved, in addition to trying to convince obstetrics patients themselves. I suspect they try to prey on the biases of certain andrological patients (read: cis men) in order to advance their agenda. As questionable as it is to talk someone out of getting medical treatment you see as unnecessary or objectionable, at least trying to convince someone who will be affected by side medical treatment allows for more personal choice on the part of the patient.
Furthermore, I think the apparent fact that these particular women apparently attempt to prey on the presumed biases of men is rather chauvinistic against us. What, do they really think we ALL secretly WANT to control bodily autonomy?
As far as I'm concerned regarding abortion, it's not my body, not my business, and not my problem. This doesn’t mean I agree with peoples autonomy being violated, it just means what they CHOOSE has nothing to do with me, and I do not want to be dragged into it.
Additionally, when I say it’s not my body/business/problem, I mean that as long as people's medical autonomy is not violated, their choices have no bearing on my existence. If medical autonomy is being violated, it establishes a dangerous precedent and means it can happen to me. Or maybe I'm just engaging in "toxic masculinity".
I will acknowledge, there are reasons that I would not necessarily agree with people getting certain medical treatments for, but then again, there are also certain reasons I would disagree with going untreated. For example, anatomically selective abortions do not sit well with me. Additionally, I don't understand why someone would choose to carry to term or make their partner do so, despite being warned well in advance that there was a maximum risk of death in childbirth or other major pregnancy hazards. I would at least, internally, question the subject's parental credentialsnote in either case. Nonetheless, it's their body, their choice, their problem. I have no right to interfere anymore than I would with someone’s nose job.
Finally, if any hypothetical men in their group really cared, I assume they would’ve showed up to the protests. If those men can’t even be bothered to show up to the protests, on what grounds do these protestors expect all these other, college aged men, to take their side?
TL;DR: If you want to have conversations with people about a medical treatment you oppose, focus on the people who are actually able to get that treatment in the first place, and let them decide for themselves instead of trying to exploit biases that someone else may not actually have despite your preconceived notion of them.
This has everything to do with assuming things about men, so I think it's entirely relevant to the conversation.
Edited by SkyCat32 on May 17th 2024 at 8:44:14 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.