Sexism

From the OP:

So, the discussion has something to do with word choice. I'm saying word choice don't mean shit when stacked up against intent and giving examples of how I'm right, in grand old OTC fashion. So in other words, <raspberry noise>.

Because, you know...<raspberry noise> is not yet attached to any -isms.

It's biased against raspberries. You can't be fruitist here!

That was a lot less mature than I'm used to seeing from you.

But anyway, yes, word choice DOES matter. Because you're choosing specific words in order to insult someone, specific to the situation and the person you're insulting. And sexist slurs are a part of that. You don't call a white woman "nigger" because that doesn't make sense (unless you're just strange or somehow not thinking straight) you call her "bitch" or "cunt" or "cow". You also use "dyke" if you want to attack her sexuality somehow. Calling a man a bitch also denigrates femininity, by using the insult to declare feminine behaviors inferior to masculine behaviors.

Word choice matters, because it's part of the intent.

Yes, and as such, people choose their words based off of maximum impact. Hence why complaining about "bitch" being offensive is silly.

Of course it's offensive, that's why people use it.

@Ace: Well, word choice is driven by intent. And the intent is to insult. Whatever words are used will be derived from that intent. If you take away the power of the words (to insult) you take away the effect intended by the speaker. Just sayin'.

And as I pointed out, that's not always effective. You can't say "just sayin'" like everyone has your ability to bounce away from things.

Sure we can. I've been offended plenty of times by arguments here, and the response has pretty much always been "So what? If you're offended, that's your problem".

edited 5th Jun '12 8:25:44 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

I've never noticed that, but I don't see a lot of people here trying to be deliberately sexist at anyone. That's aside of the the point I'm making; not everyone is capable of doing that, and it's a lot different slough off what someone on an internet board says than to deal with sexist remarks in person. That's a whole different ball game. I hear stories about girls who get these words thrown at them all the time, and for a lot of reasons they don't feel safe directly confronting the person insulting them.

I can't tell if this is going off topic or not, because it seems to be sequeing into what should be a proper response. Sadly, it seems to be "deal with it" instead of teaching people not to be sexist dicks.

Ah, but see, you're being sexist too, since "dicks" is a gendered insult.

edited 5th Jun '12 9:30:42 PM by Chariot

I was refraining from joining in here, as usual, and will gently fade back into the shadow after this, but:

DG: well played.

I'm not sure if you've hung out with the appropriate crowds if you think people won't call a white woman a "nigger". Insults are either tailored or designed for shock. I've seen bitch and SOB used frequently enough to know that they're generally only gendered for the same reason he and she are, people are still uncomfortable with using ungendered terms because they sound weird.

Drunk, you're tilting at windmills.

Yes, people can be offensive and hurtful without using any given, designated curse word.

This conversation is not even remotely about that.

@Paul: It is, actually. The OP sorta said so. My position is that calling a woman a "bitch" is no more or less offensive intrinsically than calling her any other word...as long as the intent be negative. Hell, the person could have called her "A perfectly intelligent woman" and still have been insulting her as long as certain other linguistic/social cues were present.

The words used are unimportant. I was just demonstrating exactly how unimportant they are by pointing out examples of how mutable derogatory terms can be.

Intent is not the only factor in social interaction, word choice is equally important. For comparison, if I were to call a black person the N-Word, would that be more offensive than a different insult? Of course it would. If word choice wasn't important there would be no concept of insults, just rude tones of voice.

I don't really think it matters one way or another what you intend, at least when compared with how the other person takes.

That is to say, if you think "bitch" is not terribly offensive, but other people think it is, then it shouldn't matter if you disagree, you should refrain from using it anyhow because that is the polite thing to do.

There is no such thing as a universally acceptable way to talk to people (except walking up to them and saying "Bah-weep-Graaaaagnah wheep mini bong", of course). Human interaction is highly situational, so any 'hey, don't do this' guideline only applies until the person you're addressing says 'hey, I'm perfectly OK with you using that word'. Likewise, if someone tells you they don't like you using a word in their presence, the thoughtful option is generally to just stop using it. Otherwise, just exercise caution, be polite, and keep an open mind vis-a-vis amending your vocabulary.

Drunk, we're not talking about whether or not calling a woman a "bitch" is offensive to that particular woman. Obviously it is. It's too self-evident to both discussing.

Swearing at people is mean no matter what swears you use. We know. You don't need to explain.

But in the same sense that derisively calling a straight man a "fag" is an attack on any gay men in earshot, "bitch" has the potential to be an attack on women other than the person you're directing it at.

edited 6th Jun '12 8:31:22 AM by Paul3

I disagree. People can and do find almost anything offensive. I'm not going to have my vocabulary constrained just because people are offended by it. A hardcore fundie Christian might be offended by the word "homosexual" because it implies something about a creation of his beloved God. I'm not going to stop saying that. A racial equality proponent might find the word "black" offensive because he believes that there are no real differences between races and that even bringing it up is insulting. I'm not going to stop saying that. A polytheist might be insulted by the use of the word "God" because it implies that none of his gods exist, that there is only one god, etc. I'm not going to stop saying that.

In short, just because someone is offended is a bad reason to stop saying something.

That doesn't mean there aren't good reasons to stop saying things, just not because people get offended.

My take on "bitch" is this: It absolutely can be meant to take traits that are stereotypically associated with femininity and call those traits bad. This is sexist. Sometimes, however, it can be an insult under any circumstance. So, if a woman accidentally runs into my car, damaging it, I might call her a bitch. This is not sexist.

Lot's of people are saying it's context specific, and that's right. "None of you bitches know how to drive" is sexist. "That bitch ran into my car" is not. Just like if I look at someone and say, "He is black; I need one more black person for my survey," is not racist, but looking at a group of individuals who are listening to loud rap music, shaking my head, and saying, "...blacks," it is racist.

Bitch is associated with certain kind of behavior and thus calling a certain woman a bitch isn't inherently implying that all women are such. Using a bitch as a synonym to a woman in the other hand is sexist.

"A whore" is better example of sexism, when used on women who aren't prostitutes.

@Paul: if someone gets offended because I merely used a word in their vicinity, I'm not going to avoid the word, I'm going to avoid the person. Such thin-skinned behavior, I've found, usually betrays other insecurities I'd rather not put up with if I can avoid it.

Oh my God, we are still talking about cuss words.

Look, if you willingly enter a vocal battle with someone, do you really, honestly, truly believe that you need to show some restraint to not insult them? This is just so dumb.

It's like, me and another guy end up getting in a fight, and I go in to throw a fist, and he says, "Whoa, no, dude, come on. Punching is totally off limits, that might hurt me."

If you're black, be prepared to be called a nigger. If you're a woman, be prepared to be called a bitch or something similar. If you're white, be prepared to be called a cracker, white-trash, punk-ass nerd, whitey, or something else. If you're a man, be prepared to be called a bastard, dick, prick, douchebag, etc.

It's a fucking insult, of course it's supposed to hurt. If an insult is not directly aimed at you, and you're getting hurt by it, I'm sorry, but I draw the line there on where you're just too fucking sensitive for the rest of the world to be concerned about.

And if you haven't noticed because your rock for a home is in a very rural neighborhood, insults such as bitch, nigger, etc. are becoming less focused on insulting one race/sex/etc. We should embrace this. When we start calling white people niggers and men bitches, it removes the direct impact, or the "specialness" of the cuss word. This is why I hate when the black community, or any community, tries to call words "their own" or claim "N-Word Privileges," because you're essentially not only building your own kryptonite, but telling the world all about it, how to make it yourself, and how to easily apply it to where it hurts.

edited 7th Jun '12 12:59:19 AM by HeavyDDR

Thank you for pointing at the large mass of gray flesh in this thread and announcing "THIS RIGHT HERE IS AN ELEPHANT IN CASE YOU DIDN'T KNOW".

Insults are not always about verbal wars. I use them all the time. If my housemate drinks all my coffee I would call her asshole, but I wouldn't call her a whore.

Yeah? So? You're still insulting her, but you're using a more appropriate word, one that likely isn't going to too severely offend her. We pick and choose our words all the time. If someone calls Link "Zelda," I call them stupid or an idiot. If someone calls me a... (wow I really don't know any words that offend me, so, uh, pretend I get offended by "cracker") If someone calls me a cracker and tries to verbally offend me somehow, then I call them an asshole, whore, or something that I know will hurt them.

So congratulations to you on picking up on the fact that humans are sympathetic to each other and are aware that some words are more powerful than others at different times.